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Posted
Right on, it really does come down to not thinking about what you are doing while you are doing it, you cant think about breaking 90, 80 while in action, you just have to worry about hitting the golf ball

For sure. I agree with you there.


Posted
Getting back to the origional post,

Serenity, how does a new member play in comps before you as handicap sec gives him his handicap.Does he not have to put in 5 cards? Does your club not cut players handicaps when they post better scores? All seems very odd


Rusty .There are a few websites about that will track the handicap of the nomadic golfer. Search "golf scoretracker" should do the job

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Posted
Slightly off topic...but how can I get a handicap without joining a club.

Technically, if you join your local golf association they should be able to do handicaps for you, particularly if they're a member of the GHIN system. You can post online at ghin.com then.

Some stores like some Golf Galaxies offer "virtual" clubs. Basically, they're you're home golf club (though they have no course). They give you a year's membership so you can post on GHIN. That's an option. If you don't need or want an "official" handicap, you can just calculate your own. Use the free online calculators or perhaps even consider buying Scorecard .
Getting nervous about shooting good happens to everyone, this is something that stems from the concept of handicaps.

No, it doesn't. It stems from shooting a good score. A 15 breaking 80 isn't thinking "I'm four below my handicap!" he's thinking "I'm on pace to break 80!"

That pressure would be the same whether he's got a handicap or not. As ERC said, if you don't want a handicap, don't create one for yourself - but don't go preaching your ways with bad examples to others, too.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
Thanks for all the great feedback. Lots of insight.
To answer your question as to how he got his original handicap, we took his first5 5 scores and assigned him a temporary number based on those scores. I don't think this guy is intentionally sandbagging. He is just way ahead of his curve when it comes to his scoring. The problem was that his dad being the Sunday tournament chairman was being the over protective parent instead of the tournament director. He thought there was some conspiracy against his kid instead of just looking at it as if some stranger showed up and won 5 low nets in a row.

I personally like the handicap system. In my pursuits of breaking 90, then 80 and even when I shot my personal best 72, never once dod thoughts of my handicap or what these rounds would mean from a handicap point of view. It was totally about breaking the barrier. The first time I broke 90 was monumental, the first time I broke 80 was even better and the day I shot 72 was like the day my kids were born (dont show this to my wife). If I ever sniff the 60's, I will be so nervous I may need Depends by the end of the round! The only time I ever think about my index is the following week of an event to see if I got in the money.

What I play:
Driver: FTi Tour LCG Matrix Xcon 6
3 Wood: Sonartac SS03 *14
Hybrid: FT Hybrid *18
Hybrid: Rescue Mid 22*Irons: 5-PW i10, Project X 5.5Wedges 52, 56, 60Putter:i Black #9Ball: Tour ix


Posted
No, it doesn't. It stems from shooting a good score. A 15 breaking 80 isn't thinking "I'm four below my handicap!" he's thinking "I'm on pace to break 80!"

Weather you want to call it trying to break 90,80 (or your handicap for that matter) it is still just a number in your head. It has nothing to do with what you are trying to achieve, thats the point I was trying to make.


Posted
Weather you want to call it trying to break 90,80 (or your handicap for that matter) it is still just a number in your head. It has nothing to do with what you are trying to achieve, thats the point I was trying to make.

actually, from reading your posts one would think that the point you were trying to make is that handicaps were what people were thinking about when playing.

Dont rate yourself, just play the game, whatever you shoot, thats your score that day, dont label yourself, cornering yourself with a handicap, feeling you need to shoot that to stay within your comfort zone

see... this post would lead one to believe that w/o handicaps people could "just play the game"

I actually did remove my handicap thanks for the advice!

so in effect... you are against handicaps because they might make you nervous... and since seeing your score might make some nervous, as iacas pointed out for many it is breaking 90, 80, etc... then maybe we should NOT keep score?

Also... you seem to have missed the original point of this discussion... "what to do about sandbaggers." Your answer was to do away with handicaps, which many of us have pointed out is impractical... so now we find ourselves discussing the completely unrelated issue of how handicaps effect YOUR (a person's) play, not how they effect scoring in a flighted or handicapped tournament.
My Clubs: Callaway FT-i Tour LCG 9.5° w/ Matrix Ozik Xcon 6 stiff; Sonartec GS Tour 14° w/ Graphite Design Red Ice 70 stiff; Adams Idea Pro 2h(18°) & 3h(20°) w/ Aldila VS Proto 80 stiff; Adams Idea Pro Forged 4-PW w/ TT Black Gold stiff; Cleveland CG12 DSG RTG 52°-10° & 58°-10°; Odyssey...

Posted
maybe I should stop making posts then?
or maybe just stop playing golf altogether?

Posted
maybe I should stop making posts then?

why would you do that? I would hope that not everyone would agree on every issue... I just feel that your solution... to do away with handicaps... was kind of impractical, then when you told us some of the reasons for this response, they were a little off topic. I would encourage you to share your opinions, who knows we may agree on another thread.

And if you are posting on a DB about golf... chances are you are addicted to it and can't quite playing.
My Clubs: Callaway FT-i Tour LCG 9.5° w/ Matrix Ozik Xcon 6 stiff; Sonartec GS Tour 14° w/ Graphite Design Red Ice 70 stiff; Adams Idea Pro 2h(18°) & 3h(20°) w/ Aldila VS Proto 80 stiff; Adams Idea Pro Forged 4-PW w/ TT Black Gold stiff; Cleveland CG12 DSG RTG 52°-10° & 58°-10°; Odyssey...

Posted
I was only kidding, and yes I may be addicted to golf....

handicaps are a very tricky thing though, I guess thats why the PGA tour is gross prizes only

Posted
and yes I may be addicted to golf....

I'm sure all of us here are.

handicaps are a very tricky thing though, I guess thats why the PGA tour is gross prizes only

Actually I think it's because they are all "Scratch" golfers and should be playing head to head (those are some pretty big prizes). Keep in mind that not all of us are "Scratch" or, as your profile stated prior to you changing it, 1 handicaps and probably would not play at all (competatively anyway) if it weren't for handicaps.


Posted
Im thinking about getting an acutal handicap this year so I can attempt to make the USGA mid ametuer tournament. I think you need a 4.5 to qualify. I shoot in the mid 70's usually now, what would I need to do to attain a 4.5 or better?
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Posted
For people who play in tournaments, why not just use their tournament HCP for tournament purposes. If people play in a league of some type, just use their scores from that league for a "league" hcp. Problem with handicaps is some folks play better under pressure than they do just messing it up with the pals for a buck. If the Handicap index is determined by the type of play involved only, a truer reflection occurs. To me it is a falsehood and shallow attempt to justify the present system to assume mathematically, that people cannot score below their handicaps in competitive play unless something is going on.

Posted
I just came from my board meeting where the President of our club put onthe agenda that "So & So- our Handicap Chairman would like the boards approval to lower the handicap of player So & So"

I stated for the record that I was not asking permission. I was informing them that I had done this as HDCP Chairman. He (Pres) replied that I had no righ t based on club bi-laws that had nothing in there about this. I responded that right hasd nothing to do with it. I was doing it because I had a responsibility to our membership and for that matter so did he.

When the rest of the board agreed with me, he shut up and the whole thing went away.

By the way. Had I not changed the guys handicap and let him play at the new months SCGA index, he wouold have won the low net for the 5th consecutive week. Even with me adjusting it so he played at 75% of that number, he finished 3 shots out of the money.

What I play:
Driver: FTi Tour LCG Matrix Xcon 6
3 Wood: Sonartac SS03 *14
Hybrid: FT Hybrid *18
Hybrid: Rescue Mid 22*Irons: 5-PW i10, Project X 5.5Wedges 52, 56, 60Putter:i Black #9Ball: Tour ix


Posted
I just came from my board meeting where the President of our club put onthe agenda that "So & So- our Handicap Chairman would like the boards approval to lower the handicap of player So & So"

I would like to thank you on behalf of all people who play these types of events for doing the right thing. It sounds like the other board members had your back, and that is good to hear as well.

My Clubs: Callaway FT-i Tour LCG 9.5° w/ Matrix Ozik Xcon 6 stiff; Sonartec GS Tour 14° w/ Graphite Design Red Ice 70 stiff; Adams Idea Pro 2h(18°) & 3h(20°) w/ Aldila VS Proto 80 stiff; Adams Idea Pro Forged 4-PW w/ TT Black Gold stiff; Cleveland CG12 DSG RTG 52°-10° & 58°-10°; Odyssey...

Posted
When the rest of the board agreed with me, he shut up and the whole thing went away.

Bravo! I hope you got it established that you, as handicap chairman, have the right

and the responsibility to do this sort of thing. Harvey P. tells a story about a handicap chairman who did something like this and got called on it, but didn't stick to his guns. Ran to Florida instead. I'm glad you did the right thing. Since I'm within a few hundred miles of your club, I'd like to sing your praises to my random foursomes in the next few months.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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