Am I Entitled to Relief?

[Nagah]

Teed off on the 3rd hole and found my ball embedded inside the red hazard stakes. I played the ball as it lies but wasn’t sure if I could take free relief as an immovable obstruction being the green 150m marker.The green was to the right of the picture.

[klineka]

9 minutes ago, Nagah said:

Teed off on the 3rd hole and found my ball embedded inside the red hazard stakes. I played the ball as it lies but wasn’t sure if I could take free relief as an immovable obstruction being the green 150m marker.The green was to the right of the picture.

Does "inside the red hazard stakes" mean the ball was not inside the penalty area? Or does "inside the red hazard stakes" mean that the ball was inside the penalty area?

If the green is to the right of the picture I'm going to assume you mean that the ball was not inside the penalty area. Why would you have played that as it lie?

AFAIK you'd get relief for both the embedded ball and the immovable obstruction assuming that the ball was not inside the penalty area.

[Nagah]

1 minute ago, klineka said:

Does "inside the red hazard stakes" mean the ball was not inside the penalty area? Or does "inside the red hazard stakes" mean that the ball was inside the penalty area?

If the green is to the right of the picture I'm going to assume you mean that the ball was not inside the penalty area. Why would you have played that as it lie?

AFAIK you'd get relief for both the embedded ball and the immovable obstruction assuming that the ball was not inside the penalty area.

Ball was inside the red stakes. As it is winter here in Australia we also had lift clean and place through the green. I thought I had relief but apparently not as it was in the red stakes.

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, Nagah said:

Teed off on the 3rd hole and found my ball embedded inside the red hazard stakes. I played the ball as it lies but wasn’t sure if I could take free relief as an immovable obstruction being the green 150m marker.

As I read this, your ball was in the Penalty Area, with an Immoveable Obstruction interfering with the area of your intended swing.  For Relief, we have to look at 16.1 concerning the Immoveable Obstruction, and 16.3 for the Embedded Ball.    16.1a(2) says "(2) Relief Allowed Anywhere on Course Except When Ball Is in Penalty Area."  So no relief for the IO.  16.3a(1) says "There is no relief under this Rule if the ball is embedded anywhere except in the general area."  So no relief for a ball Embedded in a Penalty Area.  Additionally, you may not take Unplayable Ball relief for a ball in a Penalty Area, per 19.1.  The only available relief is for the Penalty Area, under Rule 17.

And as @klineka says, if my initial reading is incorrect, and your ball is in the General Area, you can take relief for both the IO and the Embedded Ball.  You would take relief from ONE of those first, and if you still had interference from the other, you could take relief again.

[klineka]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

And as @klineka says, if my initial reading is incorrect, and your ball is in the General Area, you can take relief for both the IO and the Embedded Ball.  You would take relief from ONE of those first, and if you still had interference from the other, you could take relief again.

@DaveP043 Does the order in which you take relief matter in a situation like that? If order doesn't matter is there any specific reason to do one before the other?

[Nagah]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

As I read this, your ball was in the Penalty Area, with an Immoveable Obstruction interfering with the area of your intended swing.  For Relief, we have to look at 16.1 concerning the Immoveable Obstruction, and 16.3 for the Embedded Ball.    16.1a(2) says "(2) Relief Allowed Anywhere on Course Except When Ball Is in Penalty Area."  So no relief for the IO.  16.3a(1) says "There is no relief under this Rule if the ball is embedded anywhere except in the general area."  So no relief for a ball Embedded in a Penalty Area.  Additionally, you may not take Unplayable Ball relief for a ball in a Penalty Area, per 19.1.  The only available relief is for the Penalty Area, under Rule 17.

And as @klineka says, if my initial reading is incorrect, and your ball is in the General Area, you can take relief for both the IO and the Embedded Ball.  You would take relief from ONE of those first, and if you still had interference from the other, you could take relief again.

Thought so that’s why I ended up playing it as it lies. Took bogey and moved on. 

[klineka]

@Nagah Do you have a picture that's more zoomed out or an overhead shot of the hole (like google maps or something)?

I'm confused how the ball is in the penalty area if the green is to the right of the picture?

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, klineka said:

@DaveP043 Does the order in which you take relief matter in a situation like that? If order doesn't matter is there any specific reason to do one before the other?

Clarification 16.1/3 says the player is allowed to choose which condition to take relief from first.  A savvy player might be able to end up in a more advantageous condition based on the order of relief taken.

[Nagah]

3 minutes ago, klineka said:

@Nagah Do you have a picture that's more zoomed out or an overhead shot of the hole (like google maps or something)?

I'm confused how the ball is in the penalty area if the green is to the right of the picture?

The next red stake (which you can’t see) is about 15 feet from my fliers green ball. The centre of the green is 165 yards from ball.

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Clarification 16.1/3 says the player is allowed to choose which condition to take relief from first.  A savvy player might be able to end up in a more advantageous condition based on the order of relief taken.

Dave just so there was no dispute  about rules later on, I played it as it lies. It was a weird as I thought being winter rules, lift clean and replace I could do that but if I lifted my ball it would I cure a penalty as it was in the confines of the 2 red stakes.

3 minutes ago, Nagah said:

The next red stake (which you can’t see) is about 15 feet from my fliers green ball. The centre of the green is 165 yards from ball.

Dave just so there was no dispute  about rules later on, I played it as it lies. It was a weird as I thought being winter rules, lift clean and replace I could do that but if I lifted my ball it would I cure a penalty as it was in the confines of the 2 red stakes.

incure a penalty 

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, klineka said:

@Nagah Do you have a picture that's more zoomed out or an overhead shot of the hole (like google maps or something)?

I'm confused how the ball is in the penalty area if the green is to the right of the picture?

I'm picturing the PA to the player's left of the hole, the photo is taken from the fairway side, so the PA is towards the top of the photo.  

[Nagah]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm picturing the PA to the player's left of the hole, the photo is taken from the fairway side, so the PA is towards the top of the photo.  

Photos taken from hazard side. I’m right handed so I’m swinging towards the right of the photo. 

[StuM]

3 minutes ago, Nagah said:

Photos taken from hazard side. I’m right handed so I’m swinging towards the right of the photo. 

So, to be 100% Clear.  Your ball IS IN the Penalty Area / Hazard Area, Correct?  

If in the PA then only choices as @DaveP043said above is Play as it lies or take a drop & incur a penalty.

If not in the PA, then you would have had choices.

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, Nagah said:

Dave just so there was no dispute  about rules later on, I played it as it lies. It was a weird as I thought being winter rules, lift clean and replace I could do that but if I lifted my ball it would I cure a penalty as it was in the confines of the 2 red stakes.

You did everything right, its extremely rare to go wrong by playing your ball as it lies.  As for the LCP issue, that's most commonly applied only in fairways (see Model Local Rule E-3.  I know that's not formally used in many cases, but that's what the phrase "winter rules" means to me.   Even if LCP relief is expanded to the entire General Area, you couldn't use it if your ball is in the Penalty Area.

[mdl]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You did everything right, its extremely rare to go wrong by playing your ball as it lies.  As for the LCP issue, that's most commonly applied only in fairways (see Model Local Rule E-3.  I know that's not formally used in many cases, but that's what the phrase "winter rules" means to me.   Even if LCP relief is expanded to the entire General Area, you couldn't use it if your ball is in the Penalty Area.

Agree with this, though honestly here in Portland I sometimes take LCP in the rough too. Def some courses here where in late winter or spring, in the rough or the fairway, it's like 50/50 your ball is covered in heavy mud if it's not embedded. We're not allowed to post scores then anyway so I take liberal cleaning to keep it fun

To the OP, as everyone has said, you played it correctly.

[Nagah]

7 hours ago, StuM said:

So, to be 100% Clear.  Your ball IS IN the Penalty Area / Hazard Area, Correct?  

If in the PA then only choices as @DaveP043said above is Play as it lies or take a drop & incur a penalty.

If not in the PA, then you would have had choices.

Yes ball is in the hazard but as you can see it’s embedded and impeded by the green 150m.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Nagah said:

Yes ball is in the hazard but as you can see it’s embedded and impeded by the green 150m.

If your ball is in the Penalty Area, you don't get relief for either situation: embedded or interference.

@DaveP043 covered this:

11 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

As I read this, your ball was in the Penalty Area, with an Immoveable Obstruction interfering with the area of your intended swing.  For Relief, we have to look at 16.1 concerning the Immoveable Obstruction, and 16.3 for the Embedded Ball.    16.1a(2) says "(2) Relief Allowed Anywhere on Course Except When Ball Is in Penalty Area."  So no relief for the IO.  16.3a(1) says "There is no relief under this Rule if the ball is embedded anywhere except in the general area."  So no relief for a ball Embedded in a Penalty Area.  Additionally, you may not take Unplayable Ball relief for a ball in a Penalty Area, per 19.1.  The only available relief is for the Penalty Area, under Rule 17.

"Inside the red stakes" was confusing but when @klineka asked you, you again just said "yes, inside the red stakes." Stakes define a line… he was asking if you were in the PA. You are.

[Nagah]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

If your ball is in the Penalty Area, you don't get relief for either situation: embedded or interference.

@DaveP043 covered this:

"Inside the red stakes" was confusing but when @klineka asked you, you again just said "yes, inside the red stakes." Stakes define a line… he was asking if you were in the PA. You are.

Yes inside the line between the 2 red stakes. Im definately in the Penalty Area.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Nagah said:

Yes inside the line between the 2 red stakes. Im definately in the Penalty Area.

:sigh: 😉 

You can't be "inside a line." You're in the AREA. Specifically, the Penalty Area.

If you said you're "inside the white stakes" people would also be confused: are you in-bounds or out-of-bounds?

Anyway, your question has been answered, and was answered in the fourth post above. No relief, as you're in the PA.