Not in the spirit of the game!

[Fourputt]

There is a lot greater deviation for a high handicap than a lower handicap.

My only suggestion is that then maybe that 2 capper should stick to playing in scratch tournaments if he doesn't think he can compete on a handicapped basis. In my club, the only time a low handicapper has to play a high handicapper is in the match play tournaments (all stroke play tournaments are flighted), and we run several different match brackets. We run individual handicap and scratch brackets, individual senior handicap and scratch brackets, and a partner better ball handicap bracket. Anyone who feels as some do on this board doesn't have to play the handicapped tournaments. He can stick to the scratch brackets and then he doesn't give or receive strokes.

And 75% is too much. That takes any possible advantage that might have gone to the bogey golfer and gives it to the scratch player. Plus, the scratch player's game should hold up under pressure better than the bogey player's anyway, so he already has that advantage. We play our matches at 90% of course handicap, with the lower handicap playing off scratch and the higher handicap playing off the difference between the two course handicaps.

[MrSandman]

My only suggestion is that then maybe that 2 capper should stick to playing in scratch tournaments

That comment alone illustrates that their is an advantage to higher handicap players.

I am not against the handicap system. I think it works great. I think it makes matches among people from various skill levels more entertaining. Iam not suggesting it needs change, I am not saying that the system is bad. I am just commenting on the misconceptions that some people have who think that the system truly levels the playing field. And as you note, you don't do 100% handicap for match play, further illustrating that there are flaws to this for match play.

[meenman]

I think a lot of you low handicappers upset about losing to higher handicappers are playing with sandbaggers. My handicap is currently a 33 - I have shot a 105 or less ZERO times in my short career, my wife is a 38 HC - has shot below 110 once in her life, and a guy at my club has a 23 handicap and has broken a 95 one time(with a 94). Handicaps are potential - not an average of what someone shoots.

Last tournament I played in I think it was based on an 80% handicap. The teams with the lowest HC's won everything.

[JerseyThursday]

Last tournament I played in I think it was based on an 80% handicap. The teams with the lowest HC's won everything.

Whole teams with handicaps? That tournament sounds like a mess from the start.

[meenman]

Whole teams with handicaps? That tournament sounds like a mess from the start.

Best ball tournament - each player had 80% HC. Example - my wife would be getting 3 strokes on a hole where I'd only get 2.

[JaY_B]

Whole teams with handicaps? That tournament sounds like a mess from the start.

In a way I agree, I would like to see a more lombardian approach too sport (in this case golf) in the UK, this particular league system is TOO fair, and gives everyone a chance, in my opinion all leagues should be scratch leagues, if your not good enough your not good enough, it may be hard luck to higher handicaps but its dog eat dog.

Although I don't sound like much of a sportsman now, do I?

[MrSandman]

I think a lot of you low handicappers upset about losing to higher handicappers are playing with sandbaggers. My handicap is currently a 33 - I have shot a 105 or less ZERO times in my short career, my wife is a 38 HC - has shot below 110 once in her life, and a guy at my club has a 23 handicap and has broken a 95 one time(with a 94). Handicaps are potential - not an average of what someone shoots.

1. I am not upset about giving strokes, I gladly give them to friends to make the match more entertaining. I also take them from a friend who is much lower than I am, but I realize that I have the advantage (easier for me to go low in relation to my cap than him).

2. A 33 and 38 handicap is a tough example. You are at the very highest a player can be, you could be at 33 because of default more than your scores. You are from Florida, so I went to GHIN and looked up the name Jones and found the first 20+ Jones that is listed: Al Jones, 25.6 Handicap. Best scores: 81 85 89 They were on easy courses, real easy it looks like, but those are ridiculously low for a 2 or 3 cap to be giving away more than a stroke a hole. He also has some low-mid 90's in there as well. 3. My observations are not from me giving strokes and losing money. They are from keeping scores at tournaments and seeing that handicappers in the teens or higher would usually win net one day tournaments. It is much more likely for a 23 handicap to go 5 or 6 under their average than it is for a single digit.

[JerseyThursday]

In a way I agree, I would like to see a more lombardian approach too sport (in this case golf) in the UK, this particular league system is TOO fair, and gives everyone a chance, in my opinion all leagues should be scratch leagues, if your not good enough your not good enough, it may be hard luck to higher handicaps but its dog eat dog.

We could have Chelsea play our local high school in soccer. The only thing is they would have to wear 25 lb. ankle weights to even things out.

[meenman]

You are from Florida, so I went to GHIN and looked up the name Jones and found the first 20+ Jones that is listed:

This argument is deeply flawed - his 80 scores came on courses with a 57 rating (probably a par 3 course) - that is not like shooting and 80 on a course with a 70 rating.

[MrSandman]

This argument is deeply flawed - his 80 scores came on courses with a 57 rating (probably a par 3 course) - that is not like shooting and 80 on a course with a 70 rating.

He also has a few low 90's scores.

And his current handicap reflects those low 90's scores. He was probably 4 or 5 strokes higher before those rounds. I do not think it is a coincidence that the majority of one day pure stroke tournaments I have scored (over 50 of them) have had high teen or 20'ish handicap players win them. It is much easier for a higher handicap to "go low" in relation to their handicap than a lower handicap.

[meenman]

He also has a few low 90's scores.

Honestly if you look at this guys history - his handicap over the last 6 months hasnt varied by much more than a stroke. I guarantee if you played him at 100% handicap you would still beat him 95 times out of 100.

[MrSandman]

Good call on his handicap not varying much. I was wrong on that.

The guy has an 85 on 66/108 rating/slope course. That's not a par 3 course, that's a normal course. Let's say that's a par 69, he's 7 under his handicap that day. You know how many rounds I have posted at 7 under my handicap in the past 10 years? 0.

You bring up some good points, but at the same time there is a reason why the vast majority of leagues do not play 100% off handicaps.

[iacas]

23 handicap on a 73 rated course (should shoot around 96) could very easily go out and shoot an 86 or 88 in a given day (yes, 20'ish handicaps do break 90). That is 8-10 strokes under their handicap.

The odds of a 23-handicap shooting 8-10 strokes below their handicap is between 382:1 and 1650:1.

Sure, that's lower odds than a 2-handicap shooting 8-10 below (20111:1 to 125000:1), but it's still pretty much out of the range of realistic possibilities. If they shoot 8 below their handicap even once in the last 20, their handicap will drop, particularly if it's in a tournament.

If a 2 handicap shoots 3 strokes under their handicap+ course rating, that is a great round. A 23 handicap will frequently shoot 5+ strokes under their handicap+ course rating.

Actually, according to the USGA, the odds of those things happening are only 57:1 (for the 2 HCP shooting -3 relative to handicap) and 72:1 (for the 23 shooting -5 relative to handicap). So the -3 is more likely.

- A 2 handicap going 3 under is a career best round, they probably have not done that often, they might not do it for another year or two.

See the stats I posted above, or look for yourself:

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicap...eanstable.html The problem is, as you later allude to, that in match play the "bogey golfer" will often mix in a lot of pars and bogeys (which require pars or birdies just to tie), and the occasional triple or double. So let's say a guy doubles five holes (+10), bogeys eight others (+8), and pars the other five (E). The scratch golfer will likely win the five holes the bogey golfer doubled, will lose the five he pars, and will have to par the other eight holes just to halve the match. He shoots +1 or +2 and, well, he's toast. So yeah, there are some issues with playing high vs. low handicaps in match play tournaments. That's why a lot do 75-90% of handicaps. It doesn't affect the 2 handicap much (he's still a 2), but the 28 becomes a 25 or so.

[Dent]

particularly

I always see it ask if it was a tournament round or not, if it is and you enter it what does it effect or change?

[iacas]

I always see it ask if it was a tournament round or not, if it is and you enter it what does it effect or change?

The Committee can adjust your handicap downward if you post a series of "exceptional" tournament scores.

So say you shoot a bunch of 83s and have a 10 handicap. Post a pair of 79s in tournaments and you may quickly be a 6 or a 7.

[Fourputt]

The Committee can adjust your handicap downward if you post a series of "exceptional" tournament scores.

I believe that they can also "freeze" those tournament scores so that they affect your handicap more than just for the normal 20 round limit. Some guys (myself included) play enough golf that those scores can normally drop off in a little over a month. For a player suspected of sandbagging during casual rounds, those tournament scores can be flagged and remain in the calculation for up to year, if I'm not mistaken.

[Shindig]

I believe that they can also "freeze" those tournament scores so that they affect your handicap more than just for the normal 20 round limit. Some guys (myself included) play enough golf that those scores can normally drop off in a little over a month. For a player suspected of sandbagging during casual rounds, those tournament scores can be flagged and remain in the calculation for up to year, if I'm not mistaken.

I seem to also think they stick around a year, especially if a second great tournament score pops up.

Meanwhile, 20 rounds ago for me was Feb17, and I don't even have a golf vacation in there. In fact, I have a period of nearly a month (3/19 - 4/14) in which I didn't play. Yeah, that great tournament round could disappear pretty quickly if it didn't have the flagging.

[JaY_B]

We could have Chelsea play our local high school in soccer. The only thing is they would have to wear 25 lb. ankle weights to even things out.

My point, however hypothetical it is, is does it need to be that

fair , why give worse players help?, if it's all off scratch we know who are the best players and who are the best teams. Playing golf like this would go a long way to producing more elite performers IMO.