Am I in the wrong here?

[TigerCurtis333]

Ok let's set this up.

I'm an 18 year old guy finally getting to play some golf - today, I finally got to golf with a buddy as we've talked about it for months. We also had a guy, my age, of whom I'm teaching to play.

It's a PERFECT day, like a picture. So we're excited, especially the third as it's his first day out.

Now the first thing I did was teach them both about course etiquette and keeping it nice, as I didn't want him to get yelled at on his first time out, and the other friend hadn't golfed on this particular golf course - It's my home course, I've played on it 10 times or so, it's 20 bucks per person and is a public course. Nothing fancy.

In the clubhouse, I see the guy working the Team Shop and the clubhouse golf instructor, who I A) have known for years and he's known my father for many years and B) took lessons from two years ago. We're friends, whenever we see eachother at the range we always stop by and chat some golf.

So we go to the first tee, and the newcomber took 4 swings to get it past 200 yards from the tee - first time out, some jitters, lifting his head no big deal.

The teamshop guy and bill (golf instructor) zoom past us on their cart and Bill says, "we're just gonna start on two." No problem I say.

We're taking a good while to finish this one hole (by the way, I somehow hit a two straight perfect shots and put it 10 feet short of the green, but bogeyed), so I look back and see a group of two guys behind us. We finish the hole well before they were waiting, but I saw that no one was booked behind us so we wait maybe 10 minutes, relax, and let them play through.

At this point, NO ONE is behind us, and as it turned out, no one ever played behind us until we were off the course (we played nine holes). We were the only ones there other than one group and bill's group, both of whom we let play through.

So I'm thinking, cool, we can play some golf, I can teach, it's all good.

On the 3rd hole, the other guy with Bill, whom I do not know, Zooms up to my tee shot on 3 (rough) and says, "You guys plannin' on finishing, I dunno, tonight," in not a very flattering tone. So I say, "yeah we're trudging along. I'm teaching him to play and helping the other, and we just let a twosome play through." Bill says, "well, to keep the course clear, we like a 13 minute per hole maximum, so try to just play golf."

I look back (I could see from my teebox all the way to the clubhouse, no one is there, and no one ever came), but just say "Ok" and left it at that. The newbie is scared, but I tell him we're fine, just speed it up a little bit. (That part was a little funny).

So we do - on the 5th hole, a par 3, just after I sunk my putt I look and I see these guys with another guy, holding a stopwatch, all 3 of them with their arms folded, watching us play.

They followed us until the 9th hole, playing speed golf (Yeah, I didn't focus on one hole and watched them play. There was no prep to their shots, one guy was walking to the teebox directly after one had hit) - and I've seen Bill play - he's like Sergio Garcia. All 3 had carts, and they all rushed to their ball, hit, and moved on - then, after we teed off, they'd be standing behind us, stopwatch in hand, and arms folded. Basically bullying us.

At this point, I'm very pissed off that a family friend would do this when he knows I'm trying to help a friend learn this great game, and no one is behind us. We were taking maybe 15 or 17 minutes to finish each hole before he talked to us, and were trying to speed it up afterward. And friend or none, I'd be ticked that this happened period.

Anyways - did we deserve to get followed and pushed to play faster? Does it not matter that no one else was on the course, and we weren't been loud, disruptive or damaging the course? We did pick it up after the 3rd hole, and several times actually gained a hole on the group ahead of us (somehow all 3 of us got the drivers hot, so that helped). We didn't play multiple balls, nothing. Were they right to follow us like that?

[Shindig]

There are public courses that care about pace of play? When did this start happening?

Seriously, these guys are in the wrong. If there isn't a group behind you that you're holding up, your pace of play isn't a concern. It's only when your pace holds up people - possibly including your own group - that it's an issue.

I missed in the story - was the head pro doing this? If not, you might want to call him and complain.

[Harry Longshanks]

I had a similar run-in with a Marshall who insisted that we keep up the pace of play even though there was no one in-front OR behind us (weekday). In fact, we never even saw anyone else on the course that day. It was a first-date golf outing, just the two of us, we were getting to know each other, and it was going WELL - so I had no intention of picking up the pace.

We were lucky though, the Marshall didn't bug us again.

Anyway, all that to say, if you aren't affecting anyone else, no reason for the comments. Play at your leisure. (If you are affecting others, get your butt in gear.) But some Marshalls are so focused on getting everyone playing more quickly (because it is a problem), they can't see anything else.

I don't think you did anything wrong. Beginners have to learn to play somehow, and you let people play through when they got close. You weren't holding anyone up.

(I just thought of another example:)

Last weekend, we had a Marshall instruct the group ahead of us to mark their balls on the par 3 #4 so we could hit to the green, mark, then let them putt out - in order to "pick up the pace of play" Uhhhhh?

The group in front of us had been slowed by the group in front of them, which had to wait on the group in front of them. So, at #5, there were 3 foursomes sitting on the tee box with drivers in hand, while a 4th foursome teed off. WTF???? How does that speed things up?

Another time we had a Marshall tell us that we were holding things up and to tee off "now" instead of standing on the tee box talking . . . we pointed to the foursome in front of us still on the fairway and said "you want us to hit into them?" He wouldn't even look down the fairway. He just repeated himself. We argued long enough for the group in the fairway to hit, and we teed off the second they moved and promptly landed our balls right where they had been.

When Marshalls see there is a backup, why don't they start from the 18th hole and go backwards to find out who is actually causing the delay?

Uggghh, sorry for the threadjack. That just kinda came spilling out.

[Richie3Jack]

No, you didn't deserve this. I worked on different courses for years and one of these courses was known for its strict guidelines towards slow play. The general rule towards pace of play is no more than 15 minutes per hole, but that's only if there's people behind you. In this case there was nobody really behind you, so the guy who did this is a complete douchenozzle. I detest slow play, but the entire point of keeping the pace of play is so you don't hold up anybody behind you. If there's nobody that you're holding up, then who gives a flip.

My guess is that this guy is probably working at the course and can't leave until you get off the course. As a former employee at various course, this does indeed suck. However, it's something you just grin and bear it because they are the customer and they are essentially paying your salary. Plus, it's probably dead at the shop/cart barn so the guy can just sit and watch TV while he waits for you. Still sucks a bit, but in the big picture of things that's not so bad.

Pace of play isn't hard to follow. 15 minutes per hole and if the course is booked up, then just keep within a hole of the group ahead of you. But if there's nobody behind you, then you can practically take all day to play if you wish.




3JACK

[Harry Longshanks]

Oh, and while I'm ranting. Some of the fault lies with the courses. If they would space out the tee times just a little bit more instead of trying to cram as many players on the course as possible, things wouldn't back up so easily.

[sacm3bill]

IMO, yes you were wrong. I disagree with the notion of "Play as slow as you want as long as no one is behind you".

The problem with that is, it's not as simple as just letting any groups that catch you play through. (It may not be the case all the time, like if you tee off at dusk, but it's likely that at some point another group is going to catch up.) Suppose you look back and see them get to the tee of the hole you're playing while you're in the fairway, so you decide to let them play through on the next hole. Well, they are going to lose a few minutes waiting for you to clear the fairway, then another few minutes waiting for you to clear the green. That makes the group behind them lose that same amount of time while they're waiting for that group that's waiting on you. And so on, back on through to every group that started after them. Then, after you've let one group through, when the *next* group has to wait while you clear the fairway/green before they catch up and you let them play through, the problem is compounded even more.

Have you ever seen those traffic studies that show how when an accident happens, it causes a slowdown/accordion effect that still exists hours after the incident has been cleared? That's what happens on the golf course too.

On the other hand, if you keep up the required pace, the groups behind never catch you, never have to play through, everybody moves along smoothly, and life is good.

Not to mention, it's no picnic for the group playing through. They're rushed because they want to get out of your way quickly in return for the courtesy of being let through, and they're self conscious because you're watching them.

And btw, a red flag went up for me as soon as I read you were teaching people on the course. IMO the course is not the place to teach a beginner how to swing. I spent 6 months at the range before I set foot on the course, because I'd done my research and didn't want to be one of those people causing delays for all the groups behind me.

Regarding the spacing of tee times, it's simple business economics. Public courses want to move people through so they can make more money. That means tightly spaced tee times and enforcement of pace of play. I don't like the former, but can't afford a private club. I love the latter, but unfortunately I never see it happen. (Although maybe if people didn't complain so much about it, it would happen more.)

- Bill

[Big_M]

There are public courses that care about pace of play? When did this start happening?

reading the original post pissed me off.... what an asswad (the guy timing you). Shindig is right... I would definately call a head pro if this jackass is not him. I would also call the course manager and possibly never give them another dime unless I got an apology. I probably would also have shoved that stopwatch right up this guy's ass or wrapped a club around his head... either way he would be all done with his petty bullshit and I would feel all the better for making the world a better place.

[Big_M]

IMO, yes you were wrong. I disagree with the notion of "Play as slow as you want as long as no one is behind you".

I agree with the sentiment about where the proper place to learn is etc... but, if the course is wide open on a Tuesday with nothing going on, then taking a few extra minutes a hole is fine... and if people do catch you you then simply play faster and keep pace by having beginnners hit a tee shot, an approach shot, and chip and a few putts (instead of topping it all the way down the hole).

[jmoc]

You are not in the wrong. With little regard to sacm3bill, we are never going to get more people playing if we keep them on the range for 6 months before ever setting foot on the course. If that only produces a 23 handicap, it was not time well spent. You cannot teach course management on the range. Big_M has it right, if it's noon on Tuesday and no one is around, relax and let your buds have fun (as long as they are not damaging the course). As soon as you see another group, let them play through, or tell your friends they get 1 drive, approach and chip per hole the rest of the way in. Then offer to go with them to the range to help them improve and not have to "pick up" next time. Too bad you have some course Nazis in charge at you club. With any luck, they will run off more new players and them their bosses will have to let them go because the number of rounds played ( = money) at their course have decreased.... jmoc

[Richie3Jack]

If there's literally nobody behind you, then take all of the time you want. Now, you don't want to be having to let the entire world go through because that does slow up the course, but on a Tuesday at some regular course I doubt there's many people out there.

And 6 months on the range is ridiculous. I'm all for golfers more or less "paying their dues" before they start playing courses, particularly nice courses. But a week or two on the range should suffice. Golf is supposed to be fun and it's hard to really experience the game out on the range. I agree with the sentiment on teaching on the course, but more or less that the guy is a beginner and he really needs to just hit golf balls and develop his own swing, his own flaws, etc. You can remind him to "keep his eye on the ball" and teach him the ettiquete of the game (particularly not dragging your feet on the greens, picking up ball marks, replacing divots, etc). But anything more than that is a bit counterproductive.




3JACK

[$2 Nassau]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. The guy was obviously intentionally being an ass, which wasn't necessary. The fact that the course was pretty empty makes him even more of an ass. I almost wish this guy would visit some of the local courses around here and get people to speed up.

But you were in the wrong with teaching someone to play out there. No offense, but as a 22 handicap, how quickly and efficiently can you really move your friend around the course? I'm 9 strokes better and would never dream of taking someone out for a "playing lesson."

Just something to think about for next time, but I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[joshtpa]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. The guy was obviously intentionally being an ass, which wasn't necessary. The fact that the course was pretty empty makes him even more of an ass. I almost wish this guy would visit some of the local courses around here and get people to speed up.

I agree completely. Giving someone a lesson is not something that is all that quick. But I wouldnt sweat it. Just move on and hopefully you dont have to deal with it again.

[clemsontiger]

All I have to say is that some people pride themselves on being butt-holes.

[sacm3bill]

...if people do catch you you then simply play faster and keep pace by having beginners hit a tee shot, an approach shot, and chip and a few putts (instead of topping it all the way down the hole).

Good point - if the OP was planning on doing that then it wouldn't hold anyone up, and I would have no problem with it.

With little regard to sacm3bill, we are never going to get more people playing if we keep them on the range for 6 months before ever setting foot on the course. If that only produces a 23 handicap, it was not time well spent.

My point was just that the range is where you learn to swing, not the course. Not everyone will take 6 months to be ready for the course - it depends on many things. But if you try to play the course too soon with no regard for how it might inconvenience others, then you're probably the same kind of ass who would belittle someone's handicap without knowing anything about their life and why it's hard for them to get out very often to work on their swing.

You cannot teach course management on the range.

Did it sound to you like the original poster was teaching course management? His friend "took 4 swings to get it past 200 yards from the tee", so I think the OP was probably just teaching the guy how to hit the ball, and saving course management for a later date - although I'm only a 23 handicap so what do I know.

[joshtpa]

Good point - if the OP was planning on doing that then it wouldn't hold anyone up, and I would have no problem with it.

Absolutely agreed. It sounds to me as if the original poster wants to help someone learn the game (which is great), but also wants to play and not be on the range.

[jmoc]

There's a old saying, "Good Judgement comes from Experience, Experience comes from Bad Judgement". At some point we all were beginners and shot 115 on our best day out. The lessons learned from these experiences are what build us, give the frame work for later growth. When you take 4 shots to go 200 yards and watch you buddy spank one off the tee, you quickly figure out to swing slower off the tee for better contact and more distance. After the 20th time trying to reach a par 5 in 2, you learn that a Driver and 2 sevens will often produce a lower score. The range doesn't produce the same feeling as a fairway approach over water for your first round under 80, 90, or 100. That is done on the course. Yes there will be slow players, beginners and even asses, but as Capt'n Ron says "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen out there.".... jmoc

[ITgolfHack]

Bringing out the stop watch was just obnoxious. I get irritated with slow play as much as the next guy, BUT ONLY WHEN IT'S IN FRONT OF ME!!!

I agree with the sentiment about where the proper place to learn is etc... but, if the course is wide open on a Tuesday with nothing going on, then taking a few extra minutes a hole is fine... and if people do catch you you then simply play faster and keep pace by having beginnners hit a tee shot, an approach shot, and chip and a few putts (instead of topping it all the way down the hole).

I like this idea; I have a friend that just took up the game. I figure the best way to get him going, once he can make decent contact most of the time at the range, is to play a few courses with the 2 of us playing best ball. That should let him play without much pressure and still get a good feel of how to play on a real course. Right now, I don't think he would come to a real course and play even if I tried to drag him.

[Bourbon and Coke]

I too am a subscriber of the school of "You can't teach on the course."

At best you can tell him what was different about an errant swing than one of his better ones, but you can't fix his swing on the course. I've always looked at the course as "Play the game I brought." If he doesn't have the tools to fix his own swing, then he's going to have to adjust to a slice or a hook. It's much easier, faster, and beneficial to adjust your aim on the course and adjust your swing on the range.

To me this is an extension of "play within your game." To answer your question, I don't think they should hassle you for playing a slower round, but the basis for the slow round wasn't exactly justified either.