+ and - handicap

[jmgilliam]

I've heard lately people say I'm a +2 handicap and also heard (minus x handicap) -

I've got confused Can someone explain?

[ERC7.5]

  None said:

A golfer whose handicap is zero is called a "scratch golfer." A golfer whose handicap is 18 is called a "bogey golfer." It is possible to have a handicap below 0; these are referred to as 'plus' handicaps, and at the end of the round, a 'plus' handicap golfer must add his handicap to his score. A professional golfer plays off scratch, but has no actual handicap.

From here.... Basically, as far as I know, the intent of handicapping is to bring everyone closer to a common ground (par). A (-) handicap will need strokes taken off of his/her score to accomplish this and a (+) handicap (better than scratch) will need strokes added....this is determined by using the players handicap index to determine their course handicap....or something like that.

[Harry Longshanks]

Put it this way:

Tiger Woods' handicap is estimated to be +8 to +11 (depending on the source)

Charles Barkley would be a -36.4 (the highest recognized USGA index)



Tiger Woods' handicap index using Charles Barkley's swing is still probably better than Charles Barkley's actual handicap.



Note: While a better than par (aka better than "scratch") handicap index is known as a "plus" handicap index, worse than par indexes generally don't include the - (negative sign) in front of the index number.

[Fraser]

  Harry Longshanks said:

Charles Barkley would be a -36.4 (the highest recognized USGA index)

There's never a bad time to include that video!

[Q.Q.Quillume]

  Harry Longshanks said:

...Charles Barkley would be a -36.4 (the highest recognized USGA index)...

One fault it looks like Sir Charles, or the Round Mound of Rebound,

does not have - he doesn't get "a little quick" like some of us do from time to time.

[Jack Tupp]

I am a bit confused about the - (negative) and + (positive) handicaps.   I think the explanation is confusing, and not mathematically logical.   If a bogey golfer has a handicap of 18, you're saying his real handicap is -18.  (negative 18)   But NOBODY considers their handicap numbers in negative form.  Of course the handicap is subtracted from the gross score to get the net score but in general handicaps are expressed in positive (+) numbers.   Therefore, Tiger Woods imaginary handicap should be expressed as a "-10", or "negative 10, and not "10".   His imaginary handicap is NOT 10; it is a negative 10 or (-10).  Jim Furyk would have a -9 handicap.   But we must remember, these tour pros do not really have handicaps.   To compute a handicap for one of these players is just for fun, or mathematical excercise, or amusement.

[Golfingdad]

  Jack Tupp said:

Originally Posted by Jack Tupp

I am a bit confused about the - (negative) and + (positive) handicaps.   I think the explanation is confusing, and not mathematically logical.   If a bogey golfer has a handicap of 18, you're saying his real handicap is -18.  (negative 18)   But NOBODY considers their handicap numbers in negative form.  Of course the handicap is subtracted from the gross score to get the net score but in general handicaps are expressed in positive (+) numbers.   Therefore, Tiger Woods imaginary handicap should be expressed as a "-10", or "negative 10, and not "10".   His imaginary handicap is NOT 10; it is a negative 10 or (-10).  Jim Furyk would have a -9 handicap.   But we must remember, these tour pros do not really have handicaps.   To compute a handicap for one of these players is just for fun, or mathematical excercise, or amusement.

This is probably not going to help because I'm basically repeating what was already clearly explained above but ... Our handicaps are not expressed in positive numbers per se, we just leave out the (-) because its not necessary.  If a handicap is on the plus side, it will ALWAYS be expressed with the (+) so you know when you see a number without a prefix sign, it's a negative.

And you already know why it's negative ... because you subtract it from your gross to get your net.

[Dormie1360]

  Jack Tupp said:

Originally Posted by Jack Tupp

I am a bit confused about the - (negative) and + (positive) handicaps.   I think the explanation is confusing, and not mathematically logical.   If a bogey golfer has a handicap of 18, you're saying his real handicap is -18.  (negative 18)   But NOBODY considers their handicap numbers in negative form.  Of course the handicap is subtracted from the gross score to get the net score but in general handicaps are expressed in positive (+) numbers.   Therefore, Tiger Woods imaginary handicap should be expressed as a "-10", or "negative 10, and not "10".   His imaginary handicap is NOT 10; it is a negative 10 or (-10).  Jim Furyk would have a -9 handicap.   But we must remember, these tour pros do not really have handicaps.   To compute a handicap for one of these players is just for fun, or mathematical excercise, or amusement.

The handicap system is designed to equalize playing ability in a match.  Makes no difference as to who it is or how good or bad they are.  Think of 0 being the course rating.....say 72.0   Some players shoot above the course rating, so they have strokes taken away (minus)  to reach 0 (or the course rating).  Some players shoot below or better than the course rating, so they have strokes added ( plus)  to their score to reach the course rating.

If Tiger is a +8 that means his best scores are averaging about 8 strokes below the course ratings that he plays.  If I'm a -4 handicap, my best scores are averaging about 4 strokes  above the course ratings.  If we add 8 strokes to Tiger's score and subtract 4 from mine we should be even.  In a match, he would have to give me 12 strokes.

And he would kick my butt.

[Shorty]

  Jack Tupp said:

Originally Posted by Jack Tupp

But NOBODY considers their handicap numbers in negative form.  Of course the handicap is subtracted from the gross score to get the net score but in general handicaps are expressed in positive (+) numbers.   Therefore, Tiger Woods imaginary handicap should be expressed as a "-10", or "negative 10, and not "10".

If you look at a scoreboard with good amateurs, the scorbeoard will show what we understand as a + as a minus. For example

Name           Stroke score          Handicap            Nett score

Bill                      69                      -1                       70

[iacas]

It's fine the way it is. We just leave out the negative for the 99% of golfers who aren't on the + side of things.

[Dormie1360]

  Shorty said:

Originally Posted by Shorty

If you look at a scoreboard with good amateurs, the scorbeoard will show what we understand as a + as a minus. For example

Name           Stroke score          Handicap            Nett score

Bill                      69                      -1                       70

We have a guy at our club who is a +1 from time to time.  In 4-ball stroke play he has to make a birdie on the 18th handicap hole in order to play the hole "even".  He's never happy about this.

[Shorty]

  Shorty said:

Originally Posted by Shorty

If you look at a scoreboard with good amateurs, the scorbeoard will show what we understand as a + as a minus. For example

Name           Stroke score          Handicap            Nett score

Bill                      69                      -1                       70

This is an example I have cut and pasted

1	Chad xxxxxxxx	39		13
2	Victor xxxxxx	38		9
3	Stephen xxxxxxx	37		-1
4	Mick xxxxxx	36		2
5	Eddie xxxxxxx	35		5

[fredloves2golf]

Simple  math:

Add gross score + course hdcp = net score

Betterthan "scratch" have + hdcps so  something like 69 + +2 = 71 is common.

For the rest of us mortals, 81 + -10 = 71...(two players of wildly different ability tied).

[Dormie1360]

  Jack Tupp said:

Originally Posted by Jack Tupp

I am a bit confused about the - (negative) and + (positive) handicaps.   I think the explanation is confusing, and not mathematically logical.   If a bogey golfer has a handicap of 18, you're saying his real handicap is -18.  (negative 18)   But NOBODY considers their handicap numbers in negative form.  Of course the handicap is subtracted from the gross score to get the net score but in general handicaps are expressed in positive (+) numbers.   Therefore, Tiger Woods imaginary handicap should be expressed as a "-10", or "negative 10, and not "10".   His imaginary handicap is NOT 10; it is a negative 10 or (-10).  Jim Furyk would have a -9 handicap.   But we must remember, these tour pros do not really have handicaps.   To compute a handicap for one of these players is just for fun, or mathematical excercise, or amusement.

I re read your post and I can see where you are coming from as far as the plus or minus thing, but professionals can have handicap indexes just like anyone else.  The USGA handicap system computes indexes for players of all abilities.  It's just that the really good players don't normally need to use one.....they usually play in gross, not net, tournaments.

Mathematically a player's handicap is based on the player's handicap index.  Handicap indexes are computed from differentials which are computed from your individual scores adjusted for the slope of the course you played.

Big breath.

If you have a negative differential average, ( you score below par)  you will be given a + handicap index.  I know....confusing.  If you have a positive differential average, (you shoot above par) you will be given a handicap index value with no + or - distinction

So....the USGA will define your handicap as a "plus handicap" if you have a positive handicap index, which as i said, is derived from negative differentials.   If your handicap index has no + or minus distinction, which accounts for most of us mortals, they just express your handicap as a whole number without a negative or positive.

A committee can show this information anyway they want, but typically with printed tournament cards or a handicap report, I know this is true with the USGA's Tournament Software,  a plus handicap will be shown as a +3.   A person with a 12 handicap will be shown as 12. No plus or minus.   If you dot the cards, the +3 would get + signs instead of dots on the 3 easiest holes.  The 12 handicap would get dots on the 12 hardest holes.

With Shorty's example, the committee has chosen another way to express a player's handicap.  Really doesn't matter as long as the end result (math) is the same.

Bottom line.......it all works out.....hopefully players of all abilities can play each other with some sort of equalizer.

[Shorty]

  Dormie1360 said:

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

With Shorty's example, the committee has chosen another way to express a player's handicap.  Really doesn't matter as long as the end result (math) is the same.

Not really - it's more a maths thing. And this explains the confusion.

Two minuses = a plus.

Consider two players with handicaps of 8 and +1:

80 - 8 = 72

72 - -1 = 73

So scoreboards running from databases and spreadsheets have to do it that way unless they put in some special code.

[Dormie1360]

  Shorty said:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Not really - it's more a maths thing. And this explains the confusion.

Two minuses = a plus.

Consider two players with handicaps of 8 and +1:

80 - 8 = 72

72 - -1 = 73

So scoreboards running from databases and spreadsheets have to do it that way unless they put in some special code.

I'm with you.......... I was just explaining how the GHIN system does it. (Computes and classifies handicaps, plus or minus.)  As you say the guy has a +1 handicap.  If you looked up his index or handicap on GHIN it would say HI +1.2,  Course Handicap +1. The committee's responsibility is to accurately compute the total net score which is what they are doing in your example.