Hitting vs. Swinging in Golf (TGM)

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I hear what you're saying MiniBlueDragon, and I completely understand what you mean and what you're doing during your swing. But the bottom line is this;

There is centrifugal force, therefore you are swinging. It's really that simple.

I never said otherwise.

"swinging + hitting (to P7.5ish)"

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I never said otherwise.

"swinging + hitting (to P7.5ish)"

Could you tell me what you think Hitting is?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

When people have performed studies on Hitting and Swinging and conclude "they both have the same elements" or "you can do both at the same time", they've completely misunderstood what Hitting is. They've been comparing Swinging with.... Swinging (but what they thought was Hitting).

I'm still fairly certain that that hitting is defined as drive loading (pushing) while swinging is defined specifically as drag loading (pulling). I just asked Chuck Evans and he confirmed this.

Homer Kelley had the opinion that a golfer could PUSH or PULL the golf club during the swing, and that you couldn't really do both at the same time because you'd lose your lag pressure (or something). Again, pulling was "swinging" or "drag loading" and pushing was "hitting" or "drive loading."

The thing is, studies (3D or 6D machines, force measurements across and along the shafts, etc.) have shown this to be false. Not only do the best golfers do both at the same time (from about P5 on down specifically - prior to that most just pull), but that it's virtually impossible to "purely swing" or "purely hit" and to hit the ball out of your shadow (so to speak - though if you had to choose one for distance, you'd obviously choose pulling because hitting is really weak when used alone).

I agree that every swing involves some "swinging." Again, hitting alone is really weak. But it's also true that virtually every swing involves "hitting," too.

People will say that they "feel" like they're doing one or the other, but they're all doing both. Arnold Palmer was a "hitter" but Jack Nicklaus may have applied more right arm thrust (force across the shaft) than Arnie despite being a "swinger" to everyone's eyes.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

Could you tell me what you think Hitting is?

If I had a long pole attached to my left shoulder and to the club head and also tied at the wrist, my entire left arm and club would only be able to move at the shoulder (the hinge).

If I then stood in an impact position and flexed my right elbow a little more the club head would move back off the ball.

If I didn't rotate my shoulders at all but I used solely my right arm straightening I could 'hit' the ball by propelling the entire left arm/club unit forward using the right arm.

That's hitting.

It's also the feeling I have at impact along with the normal centripetal rotation, hence my comment that I swing + hit at impact.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

It's also the feeling I have at impact along with the normal centripetal rotation, hence my comment that I swing + hit at impact.

That's good, because virtually everyone does that at impact.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's good, because virtually everyone does that at impact.

Definitely agree here but I think it's about the amount of "hit" we apply to the swing.

Some people try to hit from the very top and cast the club out early enough that both of their elbows are fully straight way before impact. Other people hold off the right elbow extension but then over-power it through impact and end up flipping at the ball. It's all about getting the right amount of hit with your swing to retain the right wrist bend (flying wedge) through the impact zone and maintaining the hands ahead of clubhead position.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Definitely agree here but I think it's about the amount of "hit" we apply to the swing.

Some people try to hit from the very top and cast the club out early enough that both of their elbows are fully straight way before impact. Other people hold off the right elbow extension but then over-power it through impact and end up flipping at the ball. It's all about getting the right amount of hit with your swing to retain the right wrist bend (flying wedge) through the impact zone and maintaining the hands ahead of clubhead position.

Sure. But I'd suggest that those are related but slightly different things than what we're really talking about here. Very closely related for sure, but different enough that I don't know that it's really "the" topic per se.

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm still fairly certain that that hitting is defined as drive loading (pushing) while swinging is defined specifically as drag loading (pulling). I just asked Chuck Evans and he confirmed this.

You don't have to be "fairly certain" about anything in The Golfing Machine. It's all there and very explicit- it's just difficult to find!

I'm sorry to say I don't know who Chuck Evans is, but I welcome him to read my post and point out where I'm wrong, why I'm wrong, and do so by quoting directly from The Golfing Machine, just as I have. You'll understand if I don't just take his word for it.

"Homer Kelley had the opinion that a golfer could PUSH or PULL the golf club during the swing, and that you couldn't really do both at the same time because you'd lose your lag pressure (or something). Again, pulling was "swinging" or "drag loading" and pushing was "hitting" or "drive loading.""

You're simplifying Hitting and Swinging into 'pushing' and 'pulling'. Drag Loading isn't the definition of Swinging - it's a component of Swinging. The same goes for Drive Loading with Hitting. (Incidentally, 10-19-A, Drive Loading, nicely shows the Top and Impact of a Hitting stroke).

What do you mean exactly by "pushing" and "pulling" the golf club? If by "pushing" we're in agreement that it's a motion performed by the right arm extending from a bent position (using the First Accumulator), then it may surprise you to know you can "pull" the club with the First Accumulator also. Take a club in your right hand only, make an on plane backswing as best you can using the First Accumulator... now "pull" the clubhead towards your imaginary ball. How did you "pull" that club? By using muscular thrust of your bent right arm- which is "pushing" So there you go, you've "pushed" and "pulled" the club not only with the same stroke, but with the same hand, using the same Accumulator.

"I agree that every swing involves some "swinging." Again, hitting alone is really weak. But it's also true that virtually every swing involves "hitting," too."

Hitting alone is very weak. Kelley says in the preface to use Hitting if you're strong. Of course you'd have to be very strong to make a Hitting stroke go anywhere near as far as a Swinging stroke.

Again, you've ignored The Golfing Machine's definition of Hitting and substituted it for "pushing". I concur virtually every swing involves "pushing", but Hitting is something completely different.

"People will say that they "feel" like they're doing one or the other, but they're all doing both. Arnold Palmer was a "hitter" but Jack Nicklaus may have applied more right arm thrust (force across the shaft) than Arnie despite being a "swinger" to everyone's eyes."

What you feel ain't real. You know that

As for Arnie and Jack, sure, one of them may have had a more active right arm and purposely used the First Accumulator compared to the other- but neither of them were Hitting according to The Golfing Machine. Hitting isn't just 'pushing'- it's also an absence of centrifugal force during the swing.

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

If I had a long pole attached to my left shoulder and to the club head and also tied at the wrist, my entire left arm and club would only be able to move at the shoulder (the hinge).

If I then stood in an impact position and flexed my right elbow a little more the club head would move back off the ball.

If I didn't rotate my shoulders at all but I used solely my right arm straightening I could 'hit' the ball by propelling the entire left arm/club unit forward using the right arm.

That's hitting.

That's an excellent description of a Hitting stroke! (You could rotate your shoulders if you wanted to- that's the Pivot.)

"It's also the feeling I have at impact along with the normal centripetal rotation, hence my comment that I swing + hit at impact."

Ok, now I see where we were getting confused. What you see and feel at (preferably just after) Impact, where the clubshaft and left arm are in line - that part there is exactly the same for Hitting and Swinging. But that's only one point in time of the golf swing - at that fraction of a second, Hitting and Swinging may look the same, and to you, feel the same - but for the rest of the swing, they're different.... but I know you understand that

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I'm sorry to say I don't know who Chuck Evans is

I'm sorry, but I stopped actually reading right there and skimmed the rest. I'll take Chuck's word on the ol' yellow book - particularly when it matches up with what I've always heard - over yours at this point.

Again, TGM is or was great, but in 2011 it's old and outdated. Obviously if I quote from the book it's going to prove itself out (though I disagree that swinging is defined by centrifugal force), but the point I'm making is that Homer proposed two methods of moving the clubhead, but reality and science have taught us that everyone does both on virtually every swing. And in the end, TGM isn't worth the paper it's printed on if we can't apply something it says to actually teach someone.

Unless TGM completely rewrites a good chunk of the book, it will continue to decline in popularity, and I dare say, rightfully so.

Apologies if that rains on your parade a little. It's just my opinion, and as always, you're welcome to yours.

[mvmac]

Chuck Evans is currently a top 100 teacher and once the Director of Instructor Training and Education for The Golfing Machine

Here is an article talking his relationship with Homer's wife

http://www.medicuscorporation.com/golf_news/ShowArticle.aspx?CategoryID=1&ArticleID;=362

[mchepp]

Taggsy,

What is the point of your post? To help golfers, to brag about what you know (or better yet can recite from a book)? If you are trying to help golfers do you really think the post you made is helpful? I mean I could go to Jeff Mann's site and get a super detailed explanation of swinging and hitting.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm

Hopefully this post doesn't come off as too harsh, I really want to know your motivation.

[Mr. Desmond]

So do we have a definitive explanation yet?

The mystery has always perplexed me, and haunts me even today.

I thought it was a combo of both - as the knowledgeable above have stated - but I still screw it up. I find the right hand taking over and closing the club down on too many occasions. My guess is that my right index finger gave out and couldn't hold back that gawd-awful, misbehaving right hand.... Either that, or my hips went on strike and stopped rotating.... oy-vey, what a game...

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Chuck Evans is currently a top 100 teacher and once the Director of Instructor Training and Education for The Golfing Machine

Here is an article talking his relationship with Homer's wife

http://www.medicuscorporation.com/golf_news/ShowArticle.aspx?CategoryID=1&ArticleID;=362

Thank you for the link and informing me! I genuinely didn't know who he was, and I would be very interested in learning from him how and why I'm wrong. I feel the answer he gave Erik is incomplete (in that it doesn't fully explain Hitting and Swinging), but the quotes I've used from the book itself does- or at least does to me!

Stating I didn't know who Mr Evans is wasn't supposed to be a glib remark, and I'm very sorry if it came across that way.

Originally Posted by mchepp

Taggsy,

What is the point of your post? To help golfers, to brag about what you know (or better yet can recite from a book)? If you are trying to help golfers do you really think the post you made is helpful? I mean I could go to Jeff Mann's site and get a super detailed explanation of swinging and hitting.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm

Hopefully this post doesn't come off as too harsh, I really want to know your motivation.

Hi Mchepp,

It doesn't come across as harsh at all. Hitting and Swinging is an interesting concept (hell, if you had no interest in it, you wouldn't have opened this thread, right? ), but it's a concept very few people understand. Whenever you read about it online, there's always the disclaimer "It's basically this... but it's more complicated than that...". Well, I'm a curious chap, and I'd like to know exactly what it is, rather than the simple version of it. I'm guessing you're the same - after all, you're on this thread.

And that's what this thread is about, and that's my motivation; so that next time you hear about the concepts of Hitting and Swinging, you'll know exactly what they are, but you'll also know what they're not.

Do I think this thread will help golfers make better swings? No, I doubt it very much- but that was never the point.

As for Jeff Mann's site... why would you watch an an hour and 45 minute long YouTube video explaining what you could read in my first post in a couple of minutes (plus a three second swing video)?!

Not only that, as you've mentioned, I've quoted verbatim from the book. I'd hoped you see there is no opinion and very little interpretation from me- it's Hitting and Swinging in Kelley's words, not mine.

I hope that answers your questions

[mchepp]

Taggsy,

I like TGM. Being an engineer, we love the idea of classification of systems. Trouble is, Mr. Kelley's work did not have the benefits of technology that we have today. Slow motion cameras, trackman, 3D machines, force gauges built into golf clubs, they all give a greater micro view of the golf swing that Mr. Kelley did not have. Saying with everything we know now that someone (or anyone for that matter) swings like the pictures of the woman in the hitting section of TGM is crazy.

Did HK get it all wrong...no. He was actually decently accurate working with what he had.

I do now knowing your motivation think it is cool that you are trying to define for everyone "your" view of swinging and hitting. But I still fail to see how this is helping golfers get better.

[Etzwane]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

The centrifugal force on the golf swing, according to The Golfing Machine’s glossary is;

“The effort of the swinging clubhead to pull the Primary Lever Assembly (left arm and club) into a straight line.”

In layman’s terms, it’s the angle between your straight left arm and the clubshaft. On the backswing that angle decreases when cocking your left wrist, and on the downswing it increases when swinging the clubhead towards the ball. That angle between the left arm and clubshaft on the downswing is often referred to as “lag”.

So we now know Swinging is any time there is centrifugal force during the downswing.

I hope at this point you’re thinking to yourself; “Hang on, isn’t that every swing?!”.

Because you’d be pretty much correct. It’s certainly every swing that’s ever been on tour. It’s most likely every swing you’ve ever seen, ever, anywhere, on anyone!

So what on earth’s Hitting? Well, we know Hitting isn’t Swinging, and we know Swinging is any time there’s centrifugal force, so Hitting must be an absence of centrifugal force.

How could we use the golf club without centrifugal force? It’s easy; you keep the clubshaft in line with the left arm at all times. You imagine the left arm and golf club are just one line with no arching, or bending, or cocking, or uncocking of the left wrist. That left wrist may as well not even be there.

You don't need to keep the shaft in line with the left arm to beat centrifugal force, in hitting one does cock the left wrist. You only need to cock and uncock it actively instead of passively via centrifugal force. It is not cocked or uncoked as a wrist action though. With the proper flying wedges setup, the left wrist is cocked when the right elbow bends and vice-versa.

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by Etzwane

You don't need to keep the shaft in line with the left arm to beat centrifugal force, in hitting one does cock the left wrist. You only need to cock and uncock it actively instead of passively via centrifugal force. It is not cocked or uncoked as a wrist action though. With the proper flying wedges setup, the left wrist is cocked when the right elbow bends and vice-versa.

Hi Etzwane, thank you for your post, and for making an excellent point!

I totally agree with you on one aspect, but disagree on a couple of others.

I’m with you 100% when you say you can “beat” centrifugal force by “actively” uncocking your left wrist on the downswing. But what exactly does that entail, and how would we know when you’re in complete control of the uncocking and there’s no centrifugal force involved?

Well, an easy test would be this; at any point on the downswing with a cocked left wrist, you should be able to completely stop your arms and hands, and the clubhead would stop exactly where it was also. If the clubhead didn’t stop, and it continued on its path, no matter what distance, then you know there was “centrifugal acceleration” (the mass of the clubhead trying to get to an in-line position (clubshaft in-line with the left arm)).

So could we perform that test, potentially stopping our hands at any point on the downswing and the clubhead would stop also? You betcha.... but we’d have to either be swinging that club damn sloooooowly to do so, or else have incredibly firm wrists to be able to stop a clubhead from traveling at, for argument’s sake 70MPH, to 0MPH in the blink of an eye.

So what does it mean to “beat” centrifugal force? Well, put simply, if the centrifugal force is accelerating the clubhead towards the ball, then to beat it, you need to produce an equal and opposite force. That is to say, on the downswing, you would be actively slowing the clubhead down. You don’t want to be doing that!

The point is, you can uncock the wrist actively or passively, but they both involve centrifugal force. Hitting isn’t “beating” centrifugal force, it’s an absence of it.

But again, you’d made an excellent point- thanks for posting.

(P.S. You may be thinking the definition of Hitting I give on this thread would also fail the “centrifugal test” because the clubhead would continue traveling after my hands abruptly stop... and you’d be right! But because the clubshaft is already in-line, instead of that moving clubhead being “centrifugal acceleration”, it’s actually “centrifugal deceleration”, the useless side effect of momentum after impact.)

[Etzwane]

Centrifugal force is essentially inertia and one cannot eliminate inertia. One cannot stop the downswing and expect the clubhead not to continue without applying force to stop it, as you said. Whatever its speed is, the clubhead just "wants" to continue at the same speed.