Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[PEZGolf]

Wow, I've read a lot of the posts in this thread...

I agree with your last statement. It is like comparing Babe Ruth to today's baseball players. Ruth totally revolutionalized his sport by hitting home runs. Up until his arrival, baseball was hitting singles, stealing bases, etc. He showed people the LONG BALL would completely change the offense, and he did in an era when the ball itself was dead compared to today's balls.

Golf is a great game, and ANY ONE who becomes a Champion in it deserves praise and that includes Padraig Harrington.

[PEZGolf]

great post, don't forget francis quimet, never turned pro and therefore gave honor to the purest intentions of the game

You are right! Leaving Francis Ouimet out of my list was a bad ommission and I take the blame for that. He not only stated an amateur, he made the BREAKTHROUGH of being the first American to beat the Champions who came over from "across the pond"---England, Scotland, etc. to win OUR National Championship. He created interest in golf in this country. Imagine beating the World's #1---Harry Vardon and Ted Ray!!

[PEZGolf]

Everybody says that Tiger does not have the competition that Jack did. And it MAY be true. But what Tiger shows every week is the utter DOMINANCE of the sport of golf and he would do the same thing if he was back in that time frame. That is what I believe.

You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs, BUT I would take exception to your use of the word "DOMINANCE". Last year, there were four Majors, and Tiger won one. Zach Johnson, Angel Cabrera and Padraig Harrington won the first three and Tiger won the last one---the PGA Championship. Winning one of four and losing to Zach and Angel and Padraig is NOT exactly DOMINANCE, in my judgement. This year, there were two that Tiger competed in. He was crushed by Trevor Immelman in The Masters, as Trevor built up a 6 shot lead on the back nine on Sunday and coasted to victory, to win by 3. Tiger was never a factor. Tiger did win the United States Open, and was in obvious pain. Nonetheless, he squeaked by in the playoff with Rocco Mediate as they had to play an extra hole after both were tied after 18. Rocco was 3 down to Tiger and came roaring back by birdieing 13, 14, and 15, and actually took the lead by 1 shot until Tiger's birdie win on the 18th hole. Not exactly DOMINANCE, in my estimation.

At the beginning of the season, Tiger "stirred things up" by talking about the "possibility" of a Perfect Season with no losses. He then went out and lost to Geoff Ogilvy at Doral, and that was the END of the Perfect Season. Not exactly DOMINANCE, in my opinion. Do NOT get me wrong, Tiger is a great player, but losing to Zach, Angel, and Trevor is NOT equivalent to Jack losing to Lee Trevino, Seve, Arnie, Billy Casper, Johnny Miller, Gary Player, Raymond Floyd, and Tom Watson, all of whom are in the World Golf Hall of Fame. Does anyone seriously believe that Zach, Angel, and Trevor will be elected to the World Golf Hall of Fame?

[PEZGolf]

G'day

In another post, I write that I cannot vote since not all the GREATS can get together and play each other when each is in his OR HER prime (let us not leave the ladies out, since Bobby Jones said that Joyce Wethered had the best golf swing that he ever saw, and Hogan said the same thing about Mickey Wright). I also wrote about Hogan's record in 1953 of winning 5 of the 6 tournaments that he was physically capable of playing and ALL 3 of the Majors----he is the ONLY ONE to win The Masters, the US Open, and the Open Championship in one calendar year. Craig Wood (1941), Arnie (1960), Jack (1972) and Tiger (2002) all won the first two but FAILED to win the next leg---the Open Championship (aka "The British Open").

Also, please do not forget Byron Nelson's year of 1945---18 wins and 11 in a row!! NO ONE has come close to that EXCEPTIONAL ELEVEN--not Jack, not Tiger, not any one. Also, do not forget Walter Hagen---11 Majors when there was no Masters. Take Jack's 18 Professional Majors and subtract out 6 Masters and you get 12, one ahead of Hagen. Take Tiger's 13 and subtract out 4 Masters and you get 9, two BEHIND Hagen. Also, Hagen, the top Professional Golfer of his era and Bobby Jones, the top Amateur Golfer, played a match in 1926 that was scheduled to go 72 holes, but it went only 61 holes since Hagen CLOSED OUT Jones 12 and 11 in Match Play. Jones wrote that was his WORST LOSS EVER, and it took a year for him to get over it. We cannot determine THE Greatest Golfer Ever since they all can not play together in their prime and PROVE it by playing it out on the golf course. All talk about it is simply IDLE CHATTER, and nothing more.

[ElvisG]

Was the competition back in Jack's day's as far behind as the competition in today's golf playing against Tiger?

[PEZGolf]

Was the competition back in Jack's day's as far behind as the competition in today's golf playing against Tiger?

No---because they were better than Jim Furyk (1 Major), Phil (only 3 Majors and NO US Opens), Vijay (only 3 Majors and no US Opens), The Goose (only 2 Majors), etc.

Arnie won 7 Majors; Tom Watson 8; Gary Player 9 ; Billy Casper ( 2 US Opens and 1 Masters); Seve Ballesteros (5 Majors); Lee Trevino (6 Majors). All are in the World Golf Hall of Fame. Jack was forced to play hard against them. In the book "Arnie and Jack", Ian O'Connor writes that Angelo Argea was not afraid of any of them---except Trevino. Jack always wanted to know where Lee stood because he knew that Lee could beat him, as he proved in the head to head playoff for the US Open in 1971 at Merion. Jack won 18 Majors and finished second 19 times because these guys were capable of edging him out. How many second place finishes does Tiger have in the Majors? To use a baseball analogy, Jack played against other first place Major League Baseball teams, and Tiger plays against teams with .500 records who may NOT be good enough to make the playoffs by the end of the season.

[ElvisG]

Thank You, Publisher.

I don't know much history about golf other than today's world. It just seems that Tiger could literally win when he wants.

[PEZGolf]

One last note about Lee Trevino. The year after he beat Jack in the US Open playoff at Merion, Jack was headed for the history books. He won the Masters and the US Open at Pebble Beach. If he won the Open Championship at Muirfield, he would tie Ben Hogan as the only golfers in history to win the first three Majors in the same calendar year, and would be poised to be the FIRST to win the Professional Grand Slam. He was stopped by the Defending Champion---Lee Buck Trevino.

[PEZGolf]

Thank You, Publisher.

You are right. When Tiger rolled over everyone in the 1997 Masters, his first full year as a Pro, and in the 2000 US Open at Pebble Beach, he simply "steamrolled the competition". That has struck fear in the minds of Phil, Ernie, Vijay, Retief, Jim Furyk and the others at the top. It is the "unknowns" like Zach Johnson, Angel Cabrera, and Trevor Immelman who seem to withstand the pressure better---they are NOT expected to win, so they "keep their cool".

[I KyotE I]

I am gonna say Tiger. Its said that tiger doesn't have the competition that Jack had but I strongly disagree on it. In my personal oppinion he had the same level of competition or the fact that everyone was about as good or had the same chance to win. aside from tiger most of everyone has the same chance to win. but when Tiger is in the field everyone is playing to come in second or so it seems.

[Cizzle]

I offer this thought for consideration in terms of playing through excruciating PAIN: after Ben Hogan almost lost his life in the head on collision where he threw himself in front of his wife, and not only saved her life, but prevented her from being seriously injured, he was told he may never walk again, and would not play Championship golf. Being determined, he played and walked the rest of his career, from 1949 to 1966, and had to wrap his legs and endure tremendous pain in his legs and hips.

Also, most people did not know Ben Hogan and Ken Venturi had to play

36 holes on Saturday, not just 18. Seeing Tiger in that pain, I don't know if he could've even made it let alone win if he had to play 2 rounds in a day.

[RaLos18]

Comparing two great golfers from two different eras is very difficult! Like comparing two different Formula One champion drivers, Juan Manuel Fangio from the 50's and Michael Schumacher from the late 90's and early 2K. Both great drivers, but different times, different cars and different tracks. Not to mention different technologies.
Clearly, the advancement in technology, like graphite, lighter shafts, advancement in golf balls, COR and MOI in the clubs, even the soft spikes, gives Tiger the advantage.
I can easily say Tiger Woods is the Greatest golfer of our era.
Jack was the Greatest Golfer of his era.
Bobby Jones was the greatest golfer of his era.
Harry Vardon was the greatest golfer of his era.

[wagon b0y]

Didn't grow up when jack played, but Tiger is pretty good. I'm going to have to watch some youtube vids of jack.

[PEZGolf]

Didn't grow up when jack played, but Tiger is pretty good. I'm going to have to watch some youtube vids of jack.

I recommend that you watch Jack win the US Open at Pebble Beach in 1972 and see the 1 iron that he hit on the par 3, 71st hole that hit the pin, and finished inches away. The wind was howling off the ocean, and it is one of the Greatest Shots ever hit in a Major. Also, watch the 1977 Open Championship where Jack and Tom Watson dueled each other at Turnberry, and Watson edged him, but the two of them "lapped the field". Every time one made a birdie, the other responded with one of their own.

[bigoak]

"With Today's Technology" I'll put the rent money on Bobby Jones.

I'd also like to see Tiger Hit a wooden wood with a steel shaft. You think he is long now? Hitting Persimmon would get him even further( would be more military with rights and lefts) . Youngins don't realize that Jack revolutionized the hitting of the driver and long irons by hitting on the up swing which generated his superior length at the time.

[PEZGolf]

"With Today's Technology" I'll put the rent money on Bobby Jones.

You are right about Jack and the driver and long irons. There are two things that stand out in my mind that I have read:

1. In the 1960's and 70's, there would be held a Long Drive Contest before the tournament began. Jack Nicklaus entered many of them and if I remember correctly, was NEVER beaten, even though Andy Bean, Mike Souchak, and other Long Ball hitters played. 2. Before Jack lost weight, his thighs were 28" in diameter, for each one. My waist is 32". You want to know one of the main sources of his power? Look at his legs, and how he wound up his whole lower body with the driver. He lifted his left heel well off the ground. He put EVERYTHING into his drives, but he could get away with it, because he hit a high, controlled fade, and seldom hit into trouble. He was a much more accurate driver than Tiger. Two other notes of interest: While Jack was the longest out there, Arnie was no slouch. In many of their duels, including the playoff at the US Open at Oakmont in 1962, fans took note of where their balls ended up. Jack was longer, by a LITTLE BIT, and sometimes was outdriven by the "slasher"---THE KING. Gene Sarazen has written in his autobiography about Bobby Jones: "On the par 4's, Bob outdrove us by a bit, and sometimes we outdrove him. On the par 5's, he was 30 yards farther than us, and averaged over 300 yards." He let out the shaft when he wanted to. And he used hickory shafts, with persimmon heads. If you look carefully at his loopy swing, you can see how he drove it so far. He took the club inside, with a noticeably full hip turn (he totally wound up his lower body---like Nicklaus), and then looped the club into the correct path on the downswing.

[tennis transfer]

Too early to tell while Tiger is still playing. Once Tiger retires it'll be much easier to compare their careers.

[iwannabesedated]

I like Tiger, but Jack had the best pants.