What is a Square Clubface Throughout the Swing?

[misty_mountainhop]

Irons should be swung at a steeper angle because you stand closer to the ball with irons than woods(because irons are shorter). The steeper angle will encourage a downward strike. With the proper setup if you return the club to the same angle as you had at address you will have the correct angle for a good downward strike.

Not sure I understand this. Irons are generally struck with a more descending blow than woods because people tend to set up with the ball nearer the middle of the stance than with woods.

You shouldn't deliberately need much of a different swing for irons over woods; just a different ball position.

Yup as a rightie.

You should not be actively fanning anything open on the backswing. You may think this is what's happening but the clubhead should stay square throughout - your shoulders are rotating which gives the appearance of the clubface opening.

When the club returns to the ball, it should not be wide open. You should not need any active rolling square of the clubface; hands should roll naturally as you come through the impact.

Basically feel like you are slapping the back of your right hand into the ball. Club hits the ball first then takes a divot after impacting the ball.

Your top hand controls where the clubface is during the swing. It does nothing that's to do with power. Power comes from the torsion you've built up during the backswing and it's delivered by the big muscles and the lag (clubhead lagging behind hands) you are able to maintain and control for as long as possible. Of the two hands in the swing, it's the lower hand that delivers some of the the power and makes sure the clubface is rolling through impact.

Striking good irons requires practice; lots of it. There are some good pointers by Scott Minni in his "Smash and Carve Golf" book. You need hands leading the clubhead and real extension through impact amongst other things. As someone else says, ignore anything the person who mentions scooping irons says about golf! It's odd, but to get elevation, you need to hit down on the ball. To hit consistent irons which will have a chance of stopping on a green, you must hit the shot with a "ball-turf" impact. It should always be ball slightly before turf. As for ball position I have my driver just inside my left heel, and hit a "normal" sand iron from around the middle of my stance; everything in between varies with the longer clubs more towards where my driver goes from and the shorter irons the other way. Your clubs, shafts and balls (if you'll forgive me for saying so ) will influence how high you can hit a given shot somewhat as well.

[grantc79]

You should not be actively fanning anything open on the backswing. You may think this is what's happening but the clubhead should stay square throughout - your shoulders are rotating which gives the appearance of the clubface opening.

Actually, the clubface opens.

You can argue about why it opens, how much, or what opens it. But the simple fact is that the club face is laid flat and open at the top of your swing.

When the club returns to the ball, it should not be wide open. You should not need any active rolling square of the clubface; hands should roll naturally as you come through the impact.

Should yes, for many players they do not. It is not something that comes naturally to a whole lot of people so many have to train their hands to do it and then it will occur naturally.

The simple fact is if you grip too tight and the club face is not rolled or allowed to roll you will slice everything because the club face is still open.

Your top hand controls where the clubface is during the swing. It does nothing that's to do with power. Power comes from the torsion you've built up during the backswing and it's delivered by the big muscles and the lag (clubhead lagging behind hands) you are able to maintain and control for as long as possible. Of the two hands in the swing, it's the lower hand that delivers some of the the power and makes sure the clubface is rolling through impact.

Lower hand can actually be removed from the club at impact with no loss of power unless you are a right arm swinger or a hitter. Case and point Vijay Singh would often release the club with his right hand (or everything but release it) at impact.

I agree with you on lag, torsion, coil, and everything else. But the simple fact is that your hands are connected to the club thus that power is transferred to the ball through the hands. If your hands are working in the way they should it won't be.

[iacas]

Actually, the clubface opens.

I don't think so. If the leading edge of the clubface is parallel to your spine angle when the shaft is horizontal on the takeaway, that's not open. That's square.

If you take that as "open" then you're using the word "open" differently than I am.

[grantc79]

I don't think so. If the leading edge of the clubface is parallel to your spine angle when the shaft is horizontal on the takeaway, that's not open. That's square.

Nope, I'm using the word open very simply as open.

Look at Woods and Scott in their swings. Their club begins going backwards and you can't really see the patch on their golf gloves. The club raises up the plane and all of the sudden the patch on the glove is facing directly at you. Then comes the down swing and the patch is facing you the entire time until the moment of impact and then the wrist uncocks and rolls through the ball. The patch then goes from facing in front of the player, to facing the target, to facing behind the player. That uncocking and rolling of the wrist closes the club face at impact. If the face isn't open then the uncocking and rolling of the wrist would not be necessary. If the face isn't open then the uncocking and rolling of the wrist would in fact close the face rather than square it which would send the ball dead right.

[shortstop20]

Nope, I'm using the word open very simply as open.

I think what iacas is getting at is that the face is still square though because their wrist has not bowed or cupped. It's just two different ways to think about things.

[misty_mountainhop]

...The simple fact is if you grip too tight and the club face is not rolled or allowed to roll you will slice everything because the club face is still open.

That's a good point; the hands have to be relaxed to come through the ball correctly. You still shouldn't need to consciously roll them (unless trying to hit a deliberate hook or similar) if the basic setup is correct.

Lower hand can actually be removed from the club at impact with no loss of power unless you are a right arm swinger or a hitter. Case and point Vijay Singh would often release the club with his right hand (or everything but release it) at impact.

You're right I guess with this. The hands re. power is splitting hairs but the left hand should control where the clubface is pointing.

Good point in your other post re. Tiger and his fan of the clubface. He's well known for it but I wouldn't suggest anyone models their takeaway to fan the blade open....you'd have to concede he's a bit more talented than most of us(!) and can get away with it. The wrist cock should be on plane; it shouldn't have anything to do with opening the face. If you have a one-piece takeaway with a good shoulder turn you should be going square (at address) to square (at the top) to square (at impact).

[misty_mountainhop]

...That uncocking and rolling of the wrist closes the club face at impact.

The reason it appears open pre-impact is the natural lag that's generated in the downswing; wrist action does have to square the face during the last part of the downswing. The club isn't (or shouldn't be) open on the way back.

[iacas]

Nope, I'm using the word open very simply as open.

I still don't think that you are using the term the way I am.

If your clubface is on "square" when the shaft is parallel to the ground going back, the leading edge of the clubface is parallel to your spine angle. If the toe is straight up, the face is open. Just as with putts the clubface "opens" on the takeaway, but that's relative to the target line, not the swing plane, and not how I'm using the word "open." If a player is conscious of closing the clubface through impact, they're likely not swinging very well. Even Tiger, who tends to fan the club open a little bit more than some (and who can get away with it thanks to his eons spent practicing) isn't thinking of it - the most he'll think of is his finish position.

I think what iacas is getting at is that the face is still square though because their wrist has not bowed or cupped. It's just two different ways to think about things.

Indeed, that's more along what I was getting at.

You still shouldn't need to consciously roll them (unless trying to hit a deliberate hook or similar) if the basic setup is correct.

Also along the lines I was thinking about.

The wrist cock should be on plane; it shouldn't have anything to do with opening the face. If you have a one-piece takeaway with a good shoulder turn you should be going square (at address) to square (at the top) to square (at impact).

Indeed - it should be square at just about every point in the swing. Where it actually points at different times will depend on when someone cocks their wrists, but the variance doesn't seem to be as big as you might think. Most people tend to cock their wrists at about the same point in time anyway.

The club isn't (or shouldn't be) open on the way back.

Right. If you force the blade open going back, good luck timing that coming down.

This just happens to be one of the things I've been working on. Pulling the clubhead too far behind my body has led to it opening too much, so I'm very aware of the sensations and feelings. It's VERY easy to accidentally open the clubface on the takeaway, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

[grantc79]

I have always learned to allow the club to open going back and to close it at impact.

It isn't difficult to do and virtually every left arm swing that I have seen fans the club open to some degree.

The only swing I am familiar with that the club does not fan is the right arm hitting motion ala Moe Norman and Lee Trevino.

[iacas]

I have always learned to allow the club to open going back and to close it at impact.

This sentence alone shows why it's not going to be possible to truly discuss this with you: open

relative to what ? You don't say. If you mean the target line, then yeah, of course the club rotates open. But if you mean open relative to the swing plane, etc. then we disagree - I don't believe you should roll your forearms (or wrists) to specifically open the clubface. It happens naturally simply because you're swinging on an inclined plane. Specifically trying to open the clubface adds yet another component (timing rotation) to an already complex move.

[DavidFehertysBike]

That dude really bends over, dont he?

[iacas]

That dude really bends over, dont he?

Yeah, a bit. Perhaps to help demonstrate a point, or maybe he's just tall or something.

And yes, I moved some posts to a new thread. This is it.

[Zeph]

The guy on the Youtube video is definately fanning the club open. The clubhead should point somewhere directly down against the ball. A good reference point is the shoulders, which should point in the same direction.

You can see from the Youtube video above that his left hand has straightened out and the right hand cupped or bowed.

I've always turned my hands and opened the clubface, but have worked on removing all wrist movement lately. I turn, raise and if the club gets past perpendicular to the ground it will be dragged down from gravity. The wrists should be firm enough to support the weight of the club, but loose enough to let the club drop slightly at the top.