Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[Awsi Dooger]

Interesting question. The 4 handicap framework was a farce. I've been lower than 4, albeit decades ago, but never threatened scratch for any length of time. It's like the difference between 205 league average bowlers and 185.

Still, I don't want to underestimate the variance between scratch and pro, regardless of gender. Today I stopped at Drumlins in Syracuse briefly, during the pro-am of the Duramed Futures Tour event. I was passing through the area and GPS indicated only 5.6 miles away, so it was worth an hour.

Unmistakably these were pro players. Their practice routines and discipline were far advanced over the scratch male players I occasionally watch and play with in Miami. I saw Bri Vega drop two alignment aids on the range, check out distances carefully with the rangefinder, and then take quite a bit of time being precise with what she wanted to do in the range outing. The male scratch players generally rake it and thump it.

Massive gap between Futures Tour and top of the line LPGA. I was keeping that in mind today, while being very impressed with what I saw. The bettor in me would side with the gal pros and take my chances that Mr. Scratch is more vulnerable than he appears on paper.

[RemyM]

Playing at bulle rock often, and watching them on tv made me realize how much of a shorter course they play.

First off by USGA definition a male scratch golfer hits his drives 250 yards and can reach a 470 yard sea level par 4 in two.

The white tees at Bulle Rock carry a rating of 71.5 for men, what the scratch golfer should shoot 25% of the time. So based on that even par would be a great score over 4 rounds for the male scratch golfer playing Bulle Rock's white tees. Let's look at the results from the last two years at the LPGA Championship at Bulle Rock. 2008 cut was +1 and an even par finish was T56 12 shots behind the winner. 2009 cut was +4 and an even par finish was T31 15 shots behind the winner. I found a LPGA player that finished +1 in 2008 and even par in 2009. I think this might be a good player to choose to see how your male scratch golfer would do on the LPGA tour. Finished 60th on the money list in 2007 and 2008, missed some cuts, a couple of top 10's. Michelle Redman. http://www.lpga.com/content/2009Play...Michele-09.pdf

[foreleft]

I love hypotheticals like this. I wouldnt say I would win on the LPGA. But for fun when I play with my mom I'll tee up from the reds at our Country Club which is a Pete Dye course... with tough, fast and sloping greens (typical dye), and routinely shoot 2-3 under par.

You do realize that LPGA touring pros do not play from the reds, right?

[Dave]

Why don't we ever see a woman in the US Open? As far as I'm aware, men and women can try to qualify. There where 14 amateurs in this year's Open. I find it hard to believe that any of those amateurs are better than the top women players. Do the gals just not even try to qualify?

Same question for the British Open. I'm pretty sure they removed the "male" requirement this year.

It would be interesting to see a woman qualify and see how she played.

[iacas]

Why don't we ever see a woman in the US Open? As far as I'm aware, men and women can try to qualify. There where 14 amateurs in this year's Open. I find it hard to believe that any of those amateurs are better than the top women players.

The question isn't really about the "top women players." It's about being about as good as a top-60 woman, and no better.

[CalvinG35]

As men, why do we feel the need to be better than women all the time? When it comes to sport there is not much doubt that men generally have an advantage over women, i.e. the best men are better than the best women. OK everyone agrees. So why do we need to come and say that "well even the pretty good men are better than best women?"

Even if it is true, does it really matter. There is an LPGA for a reason, because the generalizations hold true, and a large group of women (i.e. more than a handful) who want to play competative golf they really can't keep up in PGA. But these women are the best women in the sport, why do we need to take away from that by saying that its still not as good as the top male amateurs? It's like saying the best of men's college basketball could beat teams in the WNBA. It may be true, but what does it prove? Nothing.

Isn't this just another Billie Jean King vs Bobby Riggs discussion? what did that prove, other than that Bobby Riggs was a blow-hard sexist pig?

[iacas]

Even if it is true, does it really matter.

It's interesting to discuss. If you don't find it interesting, ignore the thread.

That was short, but I don't mean it to be rude. I personally find it interesting, and I don't think it takes away anything from the women.

[CalvinG35]

I thought it was interesting when I started reading the thread, but then, the more post I read it seemed that I 'd read almost this exact thing for the other major sports. And I do think it belittles the achievements that the women have made. It's still pretty hard for women to get on their tour, but we make it sound simple for a man.

Ok, I'm off my soap box. Didn't want to bash the thread, just wanted to add a dimension to the discussion.

[kris]

I thought it was interesting when I started reading the thread, but then, the more post I read it seemed that I 'd read almost this exact thing for the other major sports. And I do think it belittles the achievements that the women have made. It's still pretty hard for women to get on their tour, but we make it sound simple for a man.

I don't think we're diminishing women at all. I for one have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone (man or woman) who plays golf professionally. I have no problem with admitting that every single woman on the LPGA is better than I can ever hope to become. They play great golf, but I think it's only natural to discuss topics like this.

[bogeyhitter25]

He could beat Young Jo. She's played in like 10 events so she must be almost exempt status. And her scoring average is 78.

[LongballGer]

Well, fact is LPGA golf is inferior golf compared to the kind of golf that is played on the PGA tour.

I believe a male scratch golfer would be in conetention every time because the courses the women play on are set up very easy and are very short.

[unabowler]

Is the situation in golf different than other sports? In a lot of sports the top high schoolers in the country would beat any woman in the world. Lebron James in high school would dominate anyone in the WNBA, as would a number of guys who are one-and-done in college and then on to the pros.

[golf_junkie27]

The only premise I would agree with if his handicap is generated from playing on tough courses, a slope rating of 135 or so, he has a chance against player ranked 125.

In this instance, player 125 is Becky Morgan. She averages 240 off the tee and has only played 16 out of 45 rounds under par. While she can find the fairway, 76%, she average nearly two putts per green. That's not very good for a professional.

Statistically, this might be the type of player he can beat. I'm assuming it's a leisure round and not under "the lights."

[iacas]

Statistically, this might be the type of player he can beat. I'm assuming it's a leisure round and not under "the lights."

Statistically, the male course rating of the tees the women typically play from is 68-69, so even if he shoots a stroke or two above the course handicap he's still under par.

I think that very fact alone is the strongest argument in favor of the guy doing "okay."

[pinhigh27]

Statistically, the male course rating of the tees the women typically play from is 68-69, so even if he shoots a stroke or two above the course handicap he's still under par.

I also think that if Stina is so sure of herself, she should have the ladies play the tips with the guys. It would be interesting to have them play the ladies tees one day and then the tips. I would like to see how the ladies are especially when they have to hit out of the rough because they can't reach the fairway.

[RemyM]

Statistically, the male course rating of the tees the women typically play from is 68-69, so even if he shoots a stroke or two above the course handicap he's still under par.

The male course ratings for the tees the LPGA plays are higher then that.

Sybase Classic - Upper Montclair 71.5 winning score -14 Wegmans - Locust Hill 72.1 winning score -17 State Farm - Panther Creek 72.1 winning score -17 Michelob Ultra - Kingsmill River 71.9 winning score -16 Even par would be a good score for a male scratch golfer (0.0 index) on any LPGA course setup. Nichole Castrale has a scoring average of 72.04 this year, she has made 11 cuts in 16 starts has 2 top 10 finishes and is 41st on the money list. I think that is where your male scratch golfer fits in.

[trog2233]

I heard that Ben Roethlisberger and Natalie Gulbis played a round of golf yesterday and played match play. She said Ben beat her and Ben is said to be a 2 handicap. But that just brings my question....

Could a typical 2 handicap male player beat an LPGA player regularly or compete in the LPGA?

[HytrewQasdfg]

Having a daughter, I have tried to get interested in ladies golf. Last week I watched part of an event, and once again it was the same story.

They mentioned a player was not making her home in Atlanta. I perked up thinking here is a local my daughter and I can follow together. She has a 3 foot put; the camera is lined up directly behind the ball at eye level; she puts and comes within a hair of missing the hole, and I'm thinking "what the ef was that?" Her putting motion was jerky and no where near lined up with the hole.

I understand women can't drive the ball as long as men, but when it comes to the short game and putting there is no physical reason why women shouldn't be just as good as men. But they aren't. I don't know if it is the smaller pool of women that play golf growing up that doesn't produce enough quality pro ladies golfers or if there is such an emphasis on hitting it long that they spend too much time practicing their driving and not enough time on their short game & putting, but the bottom line is in the areas where LPGA golfers should (in theory) be able to compete with men head on they aren't as good as the men.