Bridgestone Thread

[flap]

In todays conference Tiger repeated several times that they finished at 6:03 and they should not have been put "On the clock"

[Sandwedge74]

ye but do you not think they could have let it slide seeing as they were the only real two in contention coming to the end of a WGC and they had what, 3 holes left?

and also by the time they arrived to the 17th tee. Tiger states that JB Holmes was just entering the entering the 18th fairway - to me, thats not way out of position. It may be way out of position for whatever type of TV programming was supposed to start right 6pm.

After seeing Tiger's press conference today I still think they and we got robbed of a great battle.

[iacas]

In todays conference Tiger repeated several times that they finished at 6:03 and they should not have been put "On the clock"

And the set time was something like 3:40. Once the "time par" for the course is set, tee times are set in order to provide a good TV finish before 6:00, leaving room to interview the winner and do some other things like that.

So Tiger playing in a twosome in four hours, so what? He was only supposed to take 3:40.

[iacas]

ye but do you not think they could have let it slide

No. The worst rules are the ones with grey areas, and "Let it slide" is as grey as it gets.

Slow play is a problem on the PGA Tour, and virtually anything that helps foster discussion of slow play and perhaps speed the guys up is good in my book.

[Cesar]

and also by the time they arrived to the 17th tee. Tiger states that JB Holmes was just entering the entering the 18th fairway - to me, thats not way out of position. It may be way out of position for whatever type of TV programming was supposed to start right 6pm.

Yep. I think CBS' influence in this whole matter is being seriously understated. This isn't about rules of the game, slow play lessons being taught for the average golfer, etc. This is about CBS wanting this thing wrapped up by 6PM so they can show whatever the hell it was they wanted to show.

Personally, I think that's pathetic.

[iacas]

Yep. I think CBS' influence in this whole matter is being seriously understated.

And I think it's being overstated.

Again, they create a "time par" or rating for the course and the # of players (twosomes on Sunday). They set the tee times up in such a way that the players should finish at about 5:45pm. That's the "for TV" part. That's it. The time rating is still a part of the RULES beyond what CBS "wants." If weather delayed the start by twenty minutes, the time rating would still be the same and Tiger and Paddy would have had until 6:05 (or whatever their start time + time rating was) to finish.

Personally, I think that's pathetic.

As pathetic as making guesses about the influence of CBS on a PGA Tour event? The fact is they were behind, they were given ample opportunity to catch up, and then they were warned that they were being timed. CBS's influence on the rules officials ends when the tee times are set.

[RemyM]

and also by the time they arrived to the 17th tee. Tiger states that JB Holmes was just entering the entering the 18th fairway - to me, thats not way out of position.

Per the pace of play rule that is out of position. If you are behind on your time (they were) and the group in front of you has the cleared the green on a par four before you reach the tee you are out of position. The group ahead of them cleared the next tee. When the were put on the clock on 16 the group ahead of them cleared the green on a par five before they reached the tee.

[Cesar]

As pathetic as making guesses about the influence of CBS on a PGA Tour event? The fact is they were behind, they were given ample opportunity to catch up, and then they were warned that they were being timed. CBS's influence on the rules officials ends when the tee times are set.

Or as pathetic as assuming I "guessed" at the influence CBS had on this.

Unless the Golf Channel was lying, they were able to confirm both with PGA officials and CBS officials that the network was indeed actively lobbying the PGA to push to get the round completed by 6PM on Sunday and that they did have some influence in the decision. This was reported right after the tournament during their post tournament coverage shortly after Tiger's comments were made. They even named the CBS official that was responsible for it which I unfortunately don't remember. So if their report is true, then your "guess" that their "influence ends when tee times were set" is inaccurate.

[iacas]

Unless the Golf Channel was lying

Golf Channel - like everyone - makes mistakes. They were one of the many groups who reported that TW was fined for his remarks... right up until he flatly denied it.

This was reported right after the tournament during their post tournament coverage shortly after Tiger's comments were made.

I saw that. They didn't "confirm" anything from what I remember - they simply talked about how it might have played a role. CBS was able to get them to move the tee time from 2:10 to 2:00, and that was about it.

The Time Par for the course was something like 3:45. Even if we assume CBS exerted some influence (I maintain they didn't), they were still nearly 20 minutes behind pace and thus Paramor was well within rules to put them on the clock. Even if we assume CBS exerted some influence, that's like a guy robbing the store and the owner of the store next door urging the police to arrest the criminal. The guy still broke the law... Also, CBS didn't cause Paddy Harrington to play so slowly that they were already out of position and being warned by the sixth hole. In 10 holes the group actually LOST ground.

[Cesar]

Golf Channel - like everyone - makes mistakes. They were one of the many groups who reported that TW was fined for his remarks... right up until he flatly denied it.

The Associated Press reported that he was fined and like any news outlet, they passed the information on.

I saw that. They didn't "confirm" anything from what I remember - they simply talked about how it might have played a role. CBS was able to get them to move the tee time from 2:10 to 2:00, and that was about it.

Well our memories differ. Really wished I would have recorded that now. Seems to me that if you're going to name names like they did, it was a little more than talking about how it might have played a role. Yes it started out discussing if it might have played a role, then they named the CBS official specifically and confirmed that he did lobby for it. I'm sure of it.

The Time Par for the course was something like 3:45. Even if we assume CBS exerted some influence (I maintain they didn't), they were still nearly 20 minutes behind pace and thus Paramor was well within rules to put them on the clock. Even if we assume CBS exerted some influence, that's like a guy robbing the store and the owner of the store next door urging the police to arrest the criminal. The guy still broke the law... Also, CBS didn't cause Paddy Harrington to play so slowly that they were already out of position and being warned by the sixth hole. In 10 holes the group actually LOST ground.

Really, we're equating falling behind the group in front to robbing a store? That serious to you, huh? Well far be it from me to stop you on your anti-slow play crusade, but maybe I'd equate somebody cheating to something as serious as that.

A better analogy, in my opinion, would be somebody urging the police to arrest somebody driving 60 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. Yes, technically, the police officer can give you a ticket for that since "the law is the law". Luckily, 99.9999999% of police officers use better discretion than that. Hopefully, after the backlash from this blunder, PGA officials learn to do the same.

[iacas]

The Associated Press reported that he was fined and like any news outlet, they passed the information on.

Point being they make mistakes, as everyone does.

Really, we're equating falling behind the group in front to robbing a store?

If you'd like to misread what I wrote to "equate" the two, go ahead. But no, to answer your question, no I am not equating the two.

And that's going under the assumption - which I believe is false - that someone from CBS urged Paramor to put them on the clock. I don't believe anyone did. Paramor doesn't strike me as the type of person who needs "urged" to enforce the rules.

A better analogy, in my opinion, would be somebody urging the police to arrest somebody driving 60 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. Yes, technically, the police officer can give you a ticket for that since "the law is the law".

Actually, that happens quite frequently. I live in a neighborhood with a stop sign on the corner of my street. Nobody stops - a lot of people barely slow below about 15 or 20 when they coast through it - and some neighbors called the police and asked that they watch. Now every few weeks we have a patrol car watching our street.

My in-laws did the same for their street when my wife was a kid. It's posted as 25 and yet a lot of people zipped up the street at 35 or 40 (or more). It's unsafe for all the kids playing in their yards or crossing the streets, and so a few times they asked a cop to sit there and get people to slow down. But no, again, I wasn't "equating" the two, and frankly, I don't have a problem with someone asking the police to enforce the laws either, particularly given the instances I've seen this particular type of law asked to be enforced (when there are lots of kids in the neighborhoods). Paddy and Tiger were behind. They did that to themselves, not CBS. I don't care who asks that rules be enforced - they're still rules. Again, Paramor doesn't strike me as the type who needs any sort of "urging" to enforce the rules. And Tiger's group wasn't the only one timed in the final round. Zach Johnson and several other people named were also on the clock. I'm done. Rules are rules. It's that simple for me, yes.

[alf174]

This issue run its course yet? I hope so, because I'm sure there will be some more drama this week. Time to get into PGA Championship mode !

[I KyotE I]

What would have happened if there was a play off....there would have been a delay. How are you going to deny a great battle between padi and tiger. they wouldn't I think that tiger said everything that needed to be said while still being civil. I guess if the network is worried about showtime maybe it is time that another network picks up. I hate to say it (due to people without extended tv) but maybe the golf channel should find it's way to showing all 4 rounds. no .02

[albatross]

Of course they didn't fine him. When I heard last night that they were going to fine him, my instant thought was "no they aren't".

Like it or not, Tiger is bigger than the tour. If they fine him, he could actually refuse to pay the fine and Finchem would do NOTHING .

What's he going to do? Suspend the player that drives advertising revenue, TV ratings and tournament attendance? They sure as hell aren't going to suspend this guy. They already want him to play in MORE tournaments. The guy has the tour by the balls.

Without Tiger, the tour is hurting big time. The guy just got back this season, they aren't going to do a thing. So the threat of a fine is pointless and it's obvious by Tiger's continued attitude in the PGA press conference this afternoon.

By the way, I don't think he should have been fined and I think Tiger is right.

[Cesar]

Point being they make mistakes, as everyone does.

Including John Paramor.

If you'd like to misread what I wrote to "equate" the two, go ahead. But no, to answer your question, no I am not equating the two.

I meant "equating" in a relative term. That's why I said cheating might be as serious as robbing a store in terms of golf related offenses, but not falling behind the group in front of you.

And that's going under the assumption - which I believe is false - that someone from CBS urged Paramor to put them on the clock. I don't believe anyone did. Paramor doesn't strike me as the type of person who needs "urged" to enforce the rules.

Well maybe you're right, I'm not on a first name basis with Mr. Paramor, so I wouldn't know. Maybe he screwed up all by himself.

Actually, that happens quite frequently. I live in a neighborhood with a stop sign on the corner of my street. Nobody stops - a lot of people barely slow below about 15 or 20 when they coast through it - and some neighbors called the police and asked that they watch. Now every few weeks we have a patrol car watching our street. My in-laws did the same for their street when my wife was a kid. It's posted as 25 and yet a lot of people zipped up the street at 35 or 40 (or more). It's unsafe for all the kids playing in their yards or crossing the streets, and so a few times they asked a cop to sit there and get people to slow down. But no, again, I wasn't "equating" the two, and frankly, I don't have a problem with someone asking the police to enforce the laws either, particularly given the instances I've seen this particular type of law asked to be enforced (when there are lots of kids in the neighborhoods).

I specfically said driving 60 MPH in a 55 MPH zone, which should lead you to believe I was talking about going 5 MPH over on the highway or highway-like road. A harmless offense that nobody ever gets busted for even though techincally it is still against the law. You're bringing up much more serious and dangerous examples of people driving recklessly around children.

Paddy and Tiger were behind. They did that to themselves, not CBS. I don't care who asks that rules be enforced - they're still rules. Again, Paramor doesn't strike me as the type who needs any sort of "urging" to enforce the rules.

I don't care that rules be asked to enforced either, but go ahead and complain to a cop about not giving speeding tickets to people going 60 in a 55 and see the response you get.

It's just common sense to me. You don't pull that stunt on the 70th hole of a tournament like that. If what you're saying is true, that they were behind for a long time, then that is proof positive that the official had discretion in the matter. Why not put them on the clock when they fall behind instead of "giving them a chance to catch up". Dropping that bomb on them that late in the championship is akin to a ref calling a ticky tack call at the end of a game 7 to decide the game. Nobody wants to see it. As for their justification for it, that they have to look the rest of the field in the eye, I think that's ridiculous. Not one PGA tour member with a half a brain is going to complain. Unless they aren't fans of the game they play for a living, I can't see it. You think players back in the day would have complained about Watson and Nicklaus falling behind dueling in the last round on a stage like Firestone? I guess some might have, but they would have been laughed off as crazy. I just can't understand how the players that complain (if any), wouldn't have the business sense to understand that having these guys go head to head for a dramatic finish is good for everybody. Nobody loses. Great for ratings, great for sponsors, great for fans, and most importantly of all, great for the game and its rich history. Instead, fans are pissed, Tiger and Paddy are pissed for being robbed. I personally feel robbed, I can't imagine what they feel.

And Tiger's group wasn't the only one timed in the final round. Zach Johnson and several other people named were also on the clock.

That's fine, I honestly don't care about them. If they were seriously contending for the title, I would. That's life on the PGA Tour, be in contention to get noticed. History is not going to remember them playing this tournament.

I'm done. Rules are rules. It's that simple for me, yes.

The Rules of Golf are the rules to me. They are easy black and white decisions. Ground your club in the bunker, penalty. Hit it out of bounds, penalty. I'd never in my wildest dreams consider breaking those as they are the gospel.

But this rule ain't one of them and it leaves (in my opinion) room for discretion. If there was ever a great example of that, it would be this past weekend. If you haven't put them on the clock by the 70th hole, then let it ride man. The pros FAR outweigh the cons. That's all I'm saying.

[zeg]

I'd be interested to hear how you create "equity" in the size of galleries and number of cameras?

First of all, obviously some things cannot be controlled. But this wasn't a new rule. Everyone knew it before it came up. It was written to be applied, and the players knew what they needed to do not to be put on the clock before they ever teed up on the first hole. I don't see how you can make the rule more equitable by fudging it to make for an exciting playoff.

Second, the gallery following the leaders, especially when Woods is among them, is a simple fact of competition. Somehow the leaders at the vast majority of tournaments keep pace and don't get put on the clock, so what's special about this one? There are plenty of facts about competition that occasionally give advantages to one player over another. If you're in a popular group, you've got a lot of eyes helping find your errant tee shots in the heavy rough, a definite advantage. If you play in an early group on a rainy, windy day and the weather clears up at the end of your round, you're probably at a disadvantage. These are things that just happen...

As much as some of you would lke to do, this is not a cookie cutter black and white issue. There is one hell of a lot of gray involved.

I disagree. The rule was written knowing full well that there are large and small galleries. Most tournaments don't seem to have a problem with the final group going on the clock, so it's clearly not an onerous burden to keep up. The ONLY fair approach is to follow the rules as written. After the tournament if you discover a problem with the rule, fix it for next time, but Woods' comments notwithstanding, I'm not convinced there was a major problem here.

[Cesar]

First of all, obviously some things cannot be controlled. But this wasn't a new rule. Everyone knew it before it came up. It was written to be applied, and the players knew what they needed to do not to be put on the clock before they ever teed up on the first hole. I don't see how you can make the rule more equitable by fudging it to make for an exciting playoff.

If what iacas says is true, that they were warned as the early the 6th hole and actually lost ground the following 10 holes, then that tells you they're already fudging it. IF they were going to put them on clock, they should have done it much sooner, not on the 70th hole of the tournament. They snoozed, they 'loosed' as far as I'm concerned. Nobody cares about a ticky tack call in the 2nd quarter of the game, but everybody remembers the one with :45 seconds left.

Second, the gallery following the leaders, especially when Woods is among them, is a simple fact of competition. Somehow the leaders at the vast majority of tournaments keep pace and don't get put on the clock, so what's special about this one?

How sure are you that this actually happens?

I disagree. The rule was written knowing full well that there are large and small galleries. Most tournaments don't seem to have a problem with the final group going on the clock, so it's clearly not an onerous burden to keep up. The ONLY fair approach is to follow the rules as written. After the tournament if you discover a problem with the rule, fix it for next time, but Woods' comments notwithstanding, I'm not convinced there was a major problem here.

As long as you can prove to me they follow a clearly defined rule to a tee every single time for everybody, then I might consider conceeding this point. I just have a hard time believing that they do. Somehow, I think you're going to have trouble finding a rule saying a group has 10 holes worth of warning before being put on the clock. There is certainly room for discretion with this rule.

As I said in the Bridgestone thread, a fellow PGA Tour player complaining of Tiger and Paddy not being put on the clock would have to be a near sighted fool that isn't a fan of the game. And even if they aren't fans of the game they play for a living, then they have zero business sense because everybody wins with a dramatic finish between those two players on that great golf course.

[iacas]

But this rule ain't one of them and it leaves (in my opinion) room for discretion.

I said I was done, but I suppose I should have said I was done discussing that which isn't factual in nature. This is a fact in need of correcting: the slow play rule doesn't leave room for discretion. Very, very few good rules EVER leave room for discretion. I've seen the slow play rules, and where possible, they're incredibly clear cut and well defined.

And if Tiger was somehow given "special treatment" due to the "discretion" of a rules official, imagine the whining. No, I prefer rules that don't allow for "discretion." Humans make mistakes when their opinions (discretions) come into it. Tiger wants to blame John Paramor. Paddy is keeping quiet about it. But they had 10+ holes to get back on track and they failed to do so. Perhaps Paramor used his "discretion" in not putting them on the clock earlier in the round, hoping they'd make an honest effort to catch up. And yes, I set my cruise control at 55 MPH in 55 MPH zones. And now, barring some really silly factual errors, I believe I am actually done. Bah on me.