I tried to call a penalty today...

[Jay-Bird]

I tried to call a penalty for violation of rule 8-1 on my opponent today, but I was told what he did was OK.

How do you see it?

To set the scene - I played a 9 hole, handicap match today. We played our match with two other guys playing their own match. Player A vs player B, Player X (my opponent) vs player Z (me).

I had to give strokes on 1,5,7,8,9. I lost the first hole with 5 to his 5. We pushed the 2nd. The 3rd is a par 3, playing 143 downwind. Player A hits his tee shot and lands on the back fringe and stays on. Player B hits and lands long and rolls over the back mound. - Clearly the wind is affecting the shots.

Player X then turns to player A and says "What'd you use?"
Player A responds "8 iron".
I say - I don't think you can ask for ask for advice on club selection. I think that's a penalty.

I look up rule 8-1 and am convinced I've won the hole. We play out the hole. I make bogey, he makes par.

Is he 2 up at this point or are we all square? This has a huge effect on the rest of the round. Am I 2 down or are we all square?

I call the clubhouse on my cell phone. I ask for the PGA pro - who shall remain nameless - who is, in this instance is the "Committee" head - and who I figured I could turn to for a rule decision.

He said that what player X did was not against the rules because he didn't ask his competitor. I argued that he was wrong, but eventually I was told that he won the hole by making his 3 to my 4 and that was that.

I ended up getting him back to all square by the end of 9, but then lost on the first playoff hole.

Rule 8-1: Rule 8-1

Rule explained

WTF?

[pherg]

I agree with you. Part B says it all really.

A player must not...

b) ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies.

Unfortunately for you I'm not on the committee and I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Committee has the final say.

Just one of those things in golf.

[golf_junkie27]

He was wrong for asking and your pro was wrong for not knowing the rule. In fact, I believe it was two years ago, Mark Wilson's caddy let Camilo Villegas know what Wilson hit. It cost Wilson a penalty stroke and he still managed to win the tournament. The rule is pretty simple.

[Parker0065]

You were correct in making the call, but unfortunately for you, your Pro is a pinhead for not backing you up. File a complaint with the head of the Regional PGA! You probably won't get the win but at least your Pro may get re-educated on the rules from his boss!


I had a bad one many years ago. My buddy and I were playing in a two man best ball league and we were in first place the entire season. Near the end of the regular season we were finally matched against the #2 team. It was a close match and we were down 1 with 2 to play. The 8th hole was a realtively short par 4 but there was a stream that ran straight across the fairway about 270 yards out so I always hit a 4wood off the tee. Thier best player hits driver and dumps it into the stream. He pulls it out, pitches on the green, and two putts. I make par and as we finish I say were tied with you making bogey, and the guy says, no I didn't make bogey, I made a par. I say well you hit it in the water and he says thats not a hazard, it's a drainage ditch.

Now, the course was not marked very well and there were sporadic stakes along this stream that ran through the course and this guy was trying to say it's a hazard on some holes but not on others. Every match we played up until this one, every team had played this hole as a water hazard and taken a penalty if they hit into it.

We tie the last hole and just as I putted out, he ran into the clubhouse and I see him whispering to the head pro(which they also happened to be good buddies). I walk in and the Pro starts telling me that technically the stakes end on the adjacent hole so it can't be counted as a water hazard and that it use to be a hazard but they aren't counting it as a hazard anymore,,,blah,,blah,,blah,,,lol!! So I'm steaming but I just said OK, you just gave me a green light to hit Driver on that hole every time!

We finish off the regular season in 1st place and win the championship so thier little hazard trick got them nowhere in the end! Funny thing is the next season they added a few more stakes to the stream to mark it more clearly, and it was a hazard again,, I guess,,lol?

When someone blatantly cheats or attempts to bend the rules in competition you have to call them on it, but unfortunately not all Pro's are ethical, That's Life! All you can do is what we did, and that is smoke that team the next time we played them,,,lol!

[enduro]

Yeah it's a penalty. Stupid rule in instances like that since you may just be interested and not looking for advice. Asking a question becomes information which becomes advice I guess. But you were right.

[RemyM]

It's a penalty.

[Cussin hacker]

Thats a new one on me. Never new of that rule, but it's good to know!

[schigara]

I knew that rule before I ever started playing golf. It was in Tin Cup. "Doctor Griswald, should I hit the big dog or the 2? uhhh, soliciting shot selection advice is a two stroke penalty."

[Fat Slice]

Last year in match play finals, I paird up against a guy who brough a guest to play in our foursome. The guest had local course knowledge and coached him all day, even on club selection. I didn't make an issue of it, but I should have.

[imtomtomim]

He asked what club he used, not what he should hit. Everyone has their own distances and game. Someone else's club selection should not have an impact on their club selection. He didn't say, I used my 160 yard shot, he just said, it was an 8 iron. He also did not tell the other guy not to use his 8 iron or to use a shorter club. Don't get stuck on the small things in life.

[rjfan91]

He asked what club he used, not what he should hit. Everyone has their own distances and game. Someone else's club selection should not have an impact on their club selection. He didn't say, I used my 160 yard shot, he just said, it was an 8 iron. He also did not tell the other guy not to use his 8 iron or to use a shorter club. Don't get stuck on the small things in life.

Um... That's part of the whole "Advice is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club, or the method of making a stroke" part of the rule.

[Fat Slice]

He asked what club he used, not what he should hit. Everyone has their own distances and game. Someone else's club selection should not have an impact on their club selection. He didn't say, I used my 160 yard shot, he just said, it was an 8 iron. He also did not tell the other guy not to use his 8 iron or to use a shorter club. Don't get stuck on the small things in life.

That's still against the rule and is why caddies "tip their bag" instead of saying outright what their player used.

I do agree in general about not getting stuck on the small things in life, but, when you are talking about the rules of golf especially in a tournament, I am afraid you have to give those 'small things' their due!

[Shindig]

It's a penalty.

He was wrong for asking and your pro was wrong for not knowing the rule. In fact, I believe it was two years ago, Mark Wilson's caddy let Camilo Villegas know what Wilson hit. It cost Wilson a penalty stroke and he still managed to win the tournament. The rule is pretty simple.

Good memory. I think that's the most recently this has come up on Tour.

A few years before that, someone's caddy was looking through his competitor's bag during club selection - this is legal, by the way, unless the bag's owner or caddy deliberately obscures it (such as by placing a towel over the clubs). The player finally got fed up when he saw the other guy looking through and screamed "it was a 6-iron, OK?" ... costing him the penalty. In short, if you're playing, you're allowed to ask advice of yourself, your caddy, and if it's a fourball match, your partner or his caddy.

[bioman]

He was wrong for asking and your pro was wrong for not knowing the rule. In fact, I believe it was two years ago, Mark Wilson's caddy let Camilo Villegas know what Wilson hit. It cost Wilson a penalty stroke and he still managed to win the tournament. The rule is pretty simple.

This sounds like it was a penalty on the person giving the advice?

[zeg]

If you ask for it, it's a penalty on you. If he tells you, it's a penalty on him, whether or not you asked for it.

[Leftygolfer]

It is a penalty but I don't agree with the way you handled it. You should have kept your mouth shut and beat him with his cheating ways IMO.

[Jay-Bird]

It is a penalty but I don't agree with the way you handled it. You should have kept your mouth shut and beat him with his cheating ways IMO.

I did disregard his grounding of his club inside the boundary of a hazard (which he did on the 7th - which we pushed) (and on the playoff hole - which I lost), simply because I figured by that point he was just ignorant to the rules of golf.

This was the match play club championship, semi-finals... Shouldn't golfers play by the rules? I knew someone would think I was in the wrong for playing golf by the rules and expecting my opponent to do the same . You're telling me that you'd tolerate your opponent cheating for your own posterity? Why not allow him to place his ball on a perfect lie every shot, or let him hole putts with the flagstick in...

[Leftygolfer]

I did disregard his grounding of his club inside the boundary of a hazard (which he did on the 7th - which we pushed) (and on the playoff hole - which I lost), simply because I figured by that point he was just ignorant to the rules of golf.

You didn't tell us the context of the match. No I am not saying you should just let him do as he wishes. I just think calling the club house in the middle of the match contributed to you losing your match. I am sure you were steamed at that point and didn't play to your potential. Letting that get to you didn't help you win the match. The only thing him asking his partner what club he hit was make you play worse golf.