The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[mm6840]

Hi #2

While I 100% agree with hip slide (and Iacas theory/observations around that with amateurs) I can't agree with " Pros hips are slightly open to the target line at impact, but only slightly " at least not in general ! That's only true for CF release and NOT!!! for CP release.

The best example is Tiger Woods 2009 swing and even better Sean O'Hair (hips are very open and even shoulders)

[Chief Broom]

If you look at the pictures carefully, you will notice the angle between the left shoulder and the left hip barely changed from top of back swing to impact....

Isn't that essentially the old "recreate your address position at impact"? iacas is correct regarding the forward hip slide. Every pro your look at does that move. For me though it's something that is easier said than done. In other words I too make that move when I hit the ball well, but trying to focus on that move doesn't insure I'll hit the ball well. I'm struggling with a backwards slide at the beginning of the swing as opposed to remaining fixed and turning my hips as my weight initally shifts to the right at the beginning of the swing.

[SubPar]

Some forward slide of the hips is probably a good thing, as evidenced by the photos. But the kind of slide the hurts most of us is too much back and too much forward.

The old style hip slide, which led to the reverse-C finish, is a one way ticket to the chiropractor.

SubPar

[iacas]

While I 100% agree with hip slide (and Iacas theory/observations around that with amateurs) I can't agree with "

It's going to be impossible to discuss this while we're both using terms like "slightly" and "very" without providing actual numbers.

The video of Sean O'Hair has what I would consider a "slightly" open hip, and Sean is one of the more open players at impact on the PGA Tour. I posted a ton of pictures showing how open a bunch of pros are at impact, and relative to most mid- to high-handicappers I see , the pros are less open than the amateurs, so I called that "slightly." My definition of "slightly" in this context is 30-ish degrees open relative to the target line. I think "very" open hips can create more speed and thus more power, but in the hands (or hips) of an amateur who lacks the ability to manipulate his body and the clubhead as well as a pro, the vast majority of that power is wasted when they end up cutting across the back of the ball at some obscene angle. Hips forward with "slight" turn is thus a powerful (though not "very" powerful) and consistent position which leads to good ball striking with well above average distance (though again perhaps not "max" distance).

Some forward slide of the hips is probably a good thing, as evidenced by the photos. But the kind of slide the hurts most of us is

Yes, too much sliding on the takeaway is bad. Too many amateurs, IMO, get their weight on the right side (as they're "told" by magazines and such), then spin their hips out from there. They never really get their weight back to the left side.

[wannabe]

Resident high - hcp'er here.

1. I completely agree with the OP's theory, but I've found it very difficult to incorporate "slide the hips forward" as a downswing thought. Much better for me has been "Drive the right knee toward the left knee". It gets me away from thinking about my upper body, so I avoid any pulling from the top (shoulders).

2. Another thing I noticed about the pictures were the head positions of all the pros -- right around the same spot they were at the top of their backswings. "Keep your eye on the ball" is my thought here, allowing my head to be the last thing to get pulled through the swing.

3. My only other downswing thought is to "keep my butt out", so I maintain my spine angle.

[Leftygolfer]

I agree about the hips and everything said by Erik.

My question, how do you work on it. How do you ingrain that feeling and thus hit the ball better. I have that problem. My hips are spinning so fast that I can't compress the ball and have a real hard time hitting down and through. I have a hard time maintaining the angle of my spine through impact.

Any drills or thoughts would be great.

[glebert]

..also when we slide our head slides even more. We lack the ability to separate the lower body and upper body movements, plus our ability to maintain proper sequence and timing is limited.

I agree with this. In looking at iacas' pictures the hips are moving forward, but the head is staying pretty well centered, at least to my novice eye.

[MeanDeen]

When getting the body into this position on the downswing what should the feeling in the arms be?

[EightBlue]

I agree about the hips and everything said by Erik.

here is a simple way i think about it. the key for a good powerful golf swing is to have a 'pull' feeling instead of a 'pushing' one'. for this to happen, you need to swing from the botton up and have your legs/hips pull you through.

if you don't slide your hips, then you won't get a balance weight shift, which will either create (1) reverse pivot or (2) a swing where you are falling forward. neither is preferred.

[iacas]

Any drills or thoughts would be great.

The one with the tripod works pretty well.

[shortstop20]

I really need to get some face-on video of my swing because I know I have alot of hip slide on the downswing compared to most hackers(but that might not be bad thing like you said), it works fine for me, I'm a good ballstriker, but I wonder if I have too much.

I don't think you can have a good move through the ball without having some hip slide.

A playing partner of mine disagrees, for example, he's on his right foot at impact(or that's what he feels anyways), I am pretty solid on my left foot by the time impact comes around.

[mdl]

Thinking about sliding the hips instead of rotating the hips as the start of the downswing has just revolutionized my swing. Much more consistent ball flight without the unwanted fade, and increased my lag and gave me an extra 10+ yards to boot!

[shortstop20]

I think the hip slide helps create lag, which would explain the extra yards.

[Ringer]

Unfortunately some of the advice posted as follow up is a bit off track. There are a lot of different opinions being thrown around as to how to achieve what he is saying, and there seems to be a lack of direction. It's good to have opinions, but sometimes people have formed them without really thinking them through.

So I will do my best to set a few things straight.

#1 - Iacas is absolutely right that the BEST way to achieve a proper hip turn is by PUSHING THE RIGHT KNEE forward. I give the specific direction of "Toward the toe of your front foot".

#2 - Iacas is absolutely correct that most pro's only have slightly open hips when compared to that of most Am's. In almost every case of a slicer, you will see the left hip pull away from the ball during the forward swing. This is the absolute WORST move you can do. Yet it's mind boggling how many people give the advice to turn your hips more and move the left hip out of the way.

#3 - Where your hips go, your shoulders go. Where your shoulders go, your hands go. Where the hands go, the clubhead goes. It's all linked. So which direction SHOULD your front hip move first? Straight back away from the ball or toward the target? Well if our goal is to make the clubhead move toward the target, it seems quite logical the first move is to get the front hip moving toward the target as well. Just for clarification though, the BEST way to do this is again by directing the BACK knee. It is the one with the most leverage.

#4 - Your grip MUST change to accommodate the hip turn. If you are a "hip spinner" then you have undoubtedly altered your grip to be stronger. You have also taught yourself to "PULL THE CLUB" through impact rather than releasing it toward the target. So I'm sorry, but those of you advocating any sort of pull motion over a push motion, are simply not understanding something. Advocating a pull instinctively results in a twist around rather than a THROW OUT.

#5 - Learn to finish. Not just in balance where you are standing up and with your belt facing the target, but completely in balance where your front foot is not rolled or spun out. If you can put a quarter on the toe of your front foot and keep it there without letting it fall off, you will learn how to balance.

#6 - The lower body and upper body DO NOT work independently. Where the lower body goes directly affects where the upper body goes. That's like saying the chasie of the car travels in a different direction than the engine. If that's the case then you either don't have a car, or you've been in a serious accident.

As a final comment for anyone who cares about such matters, I was taught in the beginning to be a left hand dominant swinger. I learned to hit thousands of balls with no right hand on the club. I understand the "Pull" mentality all too well since it served me wonderfully for so many years. But once you start the process of seeking out TRUTH over advice, you will begin to see that the left side is not dominant, nor is the right side. They are part of the apparatus that swings the club. Just like one would not say the left rope controls the swing on a swingset, while the right rope is trailing. Both of them together make up the swing, and both of them move syncronously.

[chspeed]

Great thread.

I have two questions about hip slide, and especially of the images of all the pros on the first page.

1. If you compared the hip line (the vertical line you drew) of the pros at address, vs at impact, are they the same? In other words, does the turning of the hips on the backswing (not slide, but turn) move the hip line back in the backswing. If it does, then when they turn their hip back to the left, does that account for some of the movement of the hip line?

I guess what I'm saying is that if you turn your hips back and through, your hip line will move, even if you don't conciously slide your hips forward.

2. My biggest problem is when I slide my hips forward, getting my weight forward, my upper body moves too. Then I can't hit the ball. I find it extremely difficult to get my weight forward and leave my head back. When I try to force the issue, I end up falling back after the swing. Help!

[mm6840]

Unfortunately some of the advice posted as follow up is a bit off track. There are a lot of different opinions being thrown around as to how to achieve what he is saying, and there seems to be a lack of direction. It's good to have opinions, but sometimes people have formed them without really thinking them through.

that's one (dangerous) way to do it ! Most AM golfers will drive towards the target line /ball. And that is a dead move for all one/on plane swings.

#2 - Iacas is absolutely correct that most pro's only have slightly open hips when compared to that of most Am's. In almost every case of a slicer, you will see the left hip pull away from the ball during the forward swing. This is the absolute WORST move you can do. Yet it's mind boggling how many people give the advice to turn your hips more and move the left hip out of the way.

true for some and false for others (sean o'hair, anthony kim, hunter mahan,tiger woods, scott mccaron, matt kuchar,...ben hogan, ...)

#3 - Where your hips go, your shoulders go. Where your shoulders go, your hands go. Where the hands go, the clubhead goes. It's all linked. So which direction SHOULD your front hip move first? Straight back away from the ball or toward the target? Well if our goal is to make the clubhead move toward the target, it seems quite logical the first move is to get the front hip moving toward the target as well. Just for clarification though, the BEST way to do this is again by directing the BACK knee. It is the one with the most leverage.

OK - that part with optional right knee is true

#4 - Your grip MUST change to accommodate the hip turn. If you are a "hip spinner" then you have undoubtedly altered your grip to be stronger. You have also taught yourself to "PULL THE CLUB" through impact rather than releasing it toward the target. So I'm sorry, but those of you advocating any sort of pull motion over a push motion, are simply not understanding something. Advocating a pull instinctively results in a twist around rather than a THROW OUT.

you lost yourself . Obviously don't understand much about grip and nothing about hips.. and confusing type of releases with hip motions ( push release, crossover and slap release).

For one/on planners : Ideally the left hip moves behind the golfer while the right hip comes along the target line never moving towards the ball. You need to get all the weight below the waist up on your left leg before any turning of the left hip = slide

#6 - The lower body and upper body DO NOT work independently. Where the lower body goes directly affects where the upper body goes. That's like saying the chasie of the car travels in a different direction than the engine. If that's the case then you either don't have a car, or you've been in a serious accident.

are you sure ? Are you watch any slow motion video ????

Totaly false/wrong statemen

[Ringer]

I'm really quite confused about something though mm6840... how can you agree with me here..

#3 - Where your hips go, your shoulders go. Where your shoulders go, your hands go. Where the hands go, the clubhead goes. It's all linked. So which direction SHOULD your front hip move first? Straight back away from the ball or toward the target? Well if our goal is to make the clubhead move toward the target, it seems quite logical the first move is to get the front hip moving toward the target as well. Just for clarification though, the BEST way to do this is again by directing the BACK knee. It is the one with the most leverage. [M] OK - that part with optional right knee is true.

But then disagree with me here....

#6 - The lower body and upper body DO NOT work independently. Where the lower body goes directly affects where the upper body goes. That's like saying the chasie of the car travels in a different direction than the engine. If that's the case then you either don't have a car, or you've been in a serious accident. [M] are you sure ? Are you watch any slow motion video ???? Totaly false/wrong statement

These two statements of mine are virtually the same, yet you agree with one and disagree with the other.

For the record I have watched plenty of slow motion videos and two of my Tiger slow mo's are some of the most watched video's on youtube. The video you posted is not facing tiger straight on. Nor is it straight from the target. His hips are going to look far more open from that angle than pretty much any other angle a person can think of.

[mm6840]

Hey

re #3 because in those paragraph are the most important lines (in swing, to this thread) :

So which direction SHOULD your front hip move first? Straight back away from the ball or toward the target? Well if our goal is to make the clubhead move toward the target, it seems quite logical
the first move is to get the front hip moving toward the target as well

and I didn't want to disect and/or opose because of first part. It would look like I don't support that !

re #6 and slo-mo videos : my point was : you can clearly see that transitions and downswings begins with a lot of players with move hips forward (transfer into left leg) and rotation to the left (clearing hips to the left) And some players do that first move with right knee towards left.
As I said my (personal) view is that right knee forward is same/more dangerous fo AM's as is left hip left and up (which is problematic only without going left first) !

Cheers,
M