The Biggest Secret? Slide Your Hips

[bunkerputt]

I have a hard time discerning any slide at all in this golf swing.  On TV, I kept thinking he was hanging back some.  I know he plays a right to left ball and I wonder if his miss is a big hook.  This is more of the action I used to try to emulate.  I lacked the flexibility and didn't properly engage my arms on the transition, so it never really worked for me.  Just wondering what you guys think about it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I have a hard time discerning any slide at all in this golf swing.  On TV, I kept thinking he was hanging back some.  I know he plays a right to left ball and I wonder if his miss is a big hook.  This is more of the action I used to try to emulate.  I lacked the flexibility and didn't properly engage my arms on the transition, so it never really worked for me.  Just wondering what you guys think about it.

There's some. Not a lot but some.

I didn't watch much of him play. I find his left arm in the right picture more interesting than anything else, though.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

There's some. Not a lot but some.

I didn't watch much of him play. I find his left arm in the right picture more interesting than anything else, though.

That is interesting.  Thanks for the lines, BTW.  Since I went to a slightly stronger grip, an effective feel for me through the shot, to prevent big hooks, is to feel like the clubface is pointing towards the sky after impact.  Finishing right palm up, basically.  If my arms have outraced my shoulder turn, which happens when my legs and body get tired, I have to chicken-wing some to keep the clubface from turning over too much.  I'm not sure that this is what's going on here, but it looks like early chicken-winging because he has generated a lot of early arm speed by pulling the club down to the ball aggressively, probably to compensate for the slight lack of lateral motion.  That's my non-instructor two cents..

[FowlPlay]

Excuse me for not reading through all the pages, and as you might be able to guess, I'm a beginner. The gist of this is to slide your hips through impact and delay the rotation of the hips to just after impact?

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by FowlPlay

Excuse me for not reading through all the pages, and as you might be able to guess, I'm a beginner. The gist of this is to slide your hips through impact and delay the rotation of the hips to just after impact?

My suggestion is to read through the thread.  It will be worth it.  The hips will be slightly open through impact, which means they have rotated some.  The rotation is more a response to a lateral press than active twisting.  It's a one-piece motion.  You don't first try to slide, then rotate.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Just pulling your (straight right) leg.

Do agree with you, though. That compression into the ground and lowering of the head often seems to be a mark of a superior striker -- see Tiger, Sergio, Rory, Couples, Player etc. etc. Hadn't really thought about it before specifically in conjunction with the sliding piece. Interesting! Thanks.

Sorry Stretch for the late reply here.  I completely agree about the slight head drop.  I've always tended to have the opposite happen, so I've worked hard on it lately and it has really improved my striking considerably.  The only famous people that I know who can strike the ball well with a raise of the head on the backswing are Jamie Sadlowski and Phil McGleno's earlier years... not so much up and down movement nowadays for Phil however, at least in swings from '08.  In both cases, I think it is a response to a somewhat lower address position and not a loss of proper orientation to the ground as occurs frequently in amateurs.  Also, in both cases, great athletes with great tempo.  I'm sure there are more, but those two are the most noticeable.

So, why the head drop?  Same reason a rope shortens when you coil it.  When your backswing is pure turn with a deep right hip, I don't think you can help but drop some.  I don't know why I can get a better slide with the lower right head.  Part of it is power you get from leveraging into your right side so well.  It's so much easier to get back to the target.  One thing is sure, if you go lower on your backswing, and even lower on the downswing (we're talking a couple of inches max here), you are forced to do two things if you are going to strike the ball:  lag it, and keep everything moving through quickly so the club doesn't release and bounce into the ground.

[bunkerputt]

I just realized I said "lower right head" again. Intentionally not editing it for others to enjoy.  I mean "lower head at the top of the backswing".  My swing thought is "head lower into right side", which is why I keep getting confused.

[Meesh]

Here's a good article of George Knudson talking about lateral motion.

[WR Golfer]

Check out this video from Shawn Clement on the need to tilt in the golf swing.  When you look at his tilting action, it very much resembles the hip slide discussed in this forum, although he never calls it by that name.  Are we talking about the same thing here, using different terminology?

http://www.youtube.com/user/clemshaw#p/u/11/vYwLZNztbyo

[MPS67]

I think so; kind of

Shawn does slide or plant his hips forward, but likes to first first (and aggressively) plant his forward heel to the ground. Once accomplished, he'll then rotate his hips around and forward about his front leg. He's an advocate of timing his downswing with, and taking advantage of gravitational force.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by WR Golfer

Check out this video from Shawn Clement on the need to tilt in the golf swing.  When you look at his tilting action, it very much resembles the hip slide discussed in this forum, although he never calls it by that name.  Are we talking about the same thing here, using different terminology?

Similar. Not exactly the same, but very, very similar.

The only real problem I have with calling it a "tilt" is that some people will add the tilt by making themselves tilt, not by making their hips go forward.

[mdl]

I've been working on my hips recently.  I've been hitting my short irons well recently, but I've always struggle pushing or straight-hooking my long irons.  I finally realized that I was coming from the inside with on open face (or a snapped closed face for the less frequent hook) because I was sliding my hips both forward and towards the ball.  The feeling is more like I'm pushing my back hip rather than sliding.  With my long irons I can't recover just through general hand-eye coordination with an 80% swing, and my swing essentially aims towards where my hips are moving, right of the target.

My question is this.  To not get my hips to push towards the ball as well as forward, I've been experimenting with having the feeling in the swing being starting my swing both by sliding my hips forwards but also rotating my front hip away from the ball to keep my back hip from pushing towards the ball so my and aiming my whole momentum right of the target. My hips are slightly more open at impact this way than most of the pics Erik's posted in this thread, but it's been helping prevent my hands from dropping down early and pushing the ball.  Is this necessarily wrong?

I came to this from my driver swing, which is usually the best in my bag.  With the driver, I try to keep centered and keep my head from moving up or down, but otherwise I'm concentrating on my left arm as one of the two levers in the swing.  When concentrating on using this to stay on plane and produce power, I naturally start my swing with my hips and core and whip my left arm and then the club through the zone.  That start to the swing involves both moving the hips forward but also a rotation with the left hip going back.  When trying to hit an iron with the ball on the ground and closer to me, that natural firing goes more in to out and I push it, but I've been trying to emulate that driver feeling with the irons and it's been working pretty well at the range.  What do y'all think?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mdl

My question is this.  To not get my hips to push towards the ball as well as forward, I've been experimenting with having the feeling in the swing being starting my swing both by sliding my hips forwards but also rotating my front hip away from the ball to keep my back hip from pushing towards the ball so my and aiming my whole momentum right of the target. My hips are slightly more open at impact this way than most of the pics Erik's posted in this thread, but it's been helping prevent my hands from dropping down early and pushing the ball.  Is this necessarily wrong?

Is it necessarily wrong? No. Is it likely optimal? Probably also no.

If your hips are moving towards the golf ball then that's what's called "early extension." You're extending - standing up (in the hips) - prematurely. Dave and I prefer to call it "lack of regaining flexion" because you're extended at the top of the backswing, then you regain flexion (roughly address posture at about P5.5 to P6 in the downswing - except the hips are more forward), then you extend again through the shot.

I'd recommend trying this drill instead. Put a chair or something up against your butt. Slide forward along the chair (a folding table works really well too because it provides a better edge), keeping your butt/hips in contact with the chair/table. If your butt moves away from the table, you've "early extended."

Originally Posted by mdl

I came to this from my driver swing, which is usually the best in my bag.  With the driver, I try to keep centered and keep my head from moving up or down, but otherwise I'm concentrating on my left arm as one of the two levers in the swing.  When concentrating on using this to stay on plane and produce power, I naturally start my swing with my hips and core and whip my left arm and then the club through the zone.  That start to the swing involves both moving the hips forward but also a rotation with the left hip going back.  When trying to hit an iron with the ball on the ground and closer to me, that natural firing goes more in to out and I push it, but I've been trying to emulate that driver feeling with the irons and it's been working pretty well at the range.  What do y'all think?

Feel isn't real. If you've got a feel that works for you, it's tough to say based on your descriptions what it's actually making you do, so if the shots are good, stick with it.

The hips WILL rotate as they push forward. It's just that too many people rotate too much, too early. That's why this thread exists. If you go forward plenty then, assuming something else isn't way out of whack, you can almost rotate as fast as you can!

[GaryH]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

None

It's going to be impossible to discuss this while we're both using terms like "slightly" and "very" without providing actual numbers.

The video of Sean O'Hair has what I would consider a "slightly" open hip, and Sean is one of the more open players at impact on the PGA Tour. I posted a ton of pictures showing how open a bunch of pros are at impact, and relative to most mid- to high-handicappers I see , the pros are less open than the amateurs , so I called that "slightly." My definition of "slightly" in this context is 30-ish degrees open relative to the target line. I think "very" open hips can create more speed and thus more power, but in the hands (or hips) of an amateur who lacks the ability to manipulate his body and the clubhead as well as a pro, the vast majority of that power is wasted when they end up cutting across the back of the ball at some obscene angle. Hips forward with "slight" turn is thus a powerful (though not "very" powerful) and consistent position which leads to good ball striking with well above average distance (though again perhaps not "max" distance).

None

Yes, too much sliding on the takeaway is bad. Too many amateurs, IMO, get their weight on the right side (as they're "told" by magazines and such), then spin their hips out from there. They never really get their weight back to the left side.

Firstly, this is a great thread and i'm going to try the hip slide swing key for the downswing next time at the range.  It makes sense and feels good swinging my club in the garden, and i like the way the arms get pulled down in natural response.  Fingers crossed it works for me!

I must say, though, that the bit i've highlighted surprised me.  This is because in my copy of The Swing Factory they show loads of photos of amateurs vs pros at impact from down the line.  All the amateurs have hips square to the target line at impact.  The pro's hips are more open than the amateurs, a fault identified by the authors of the book.

Anyhow, i've probably been guilty of over-interpreting this and i now have better knowledge thanks to this thread that the hips should only be slightly open at impact because up to this stage their movement has been mainly lateral.  Thanks!

[bunkerputt]

I started doing a drill that I think has helped me get my right shoulder lower and hips more forward at impact along with a little more secondary axis tilt (I currently gain 4 degrees, need a few degrees more).  It's a pretty old one so you may have heard of it, but I thought it would go well in this thread.  Hold the head and set the grip end of a long iron into the ground somewhere around your right foot and along the target line.  Make a backswing motion (holding the club) and then make a pivot motion like you are skipping a stone across a pond, letting your right hand pass under your left arm.  You can grab a rock and try to throw it as hard as you can like this.  If you want any power, you are forced to keep your left shoulder in the same spot and you can't turn up away from the target line.  You have to slide and drop the right shoulder a little lower.  At some point in your actual swing, the left shoulder starts getting higher, but the initial motion should be lateral, maybe slightly down depending on how much you squat into the ground.  This drill seems to help with the initial transition motion.  Then you're into a good position to hit and you can just crank that shoulder as high as you want.  I think Davis Love III uses this drill.

[bplewis24]

I need video of this drill you speak of.

[bunkerputt]

I looked, but I can't find it and I can't remember where I read it.  Maybe in a golf magazine in a dentist's office 3 years ago.  Can anyone help Brandon out?

[bunkerputt]

Found it!  http://www.golflink.com/tipsvideos/video.aspx?v=47134

The first few seconds are all you need.  I put the club on the ground more in front of my right foot.  Watch his hips.  Hope it helps out.