"Deep" Hands Explained (or "Depth")

[iacas]

Originally Posted by i-Guy

I recently started working with a Pro who went to one of Mike and Andy's seminars in Orlando and he thinks the S&T is a very good swing and is willing to work me on it...wish me luck!

You don't need luck... just take your time, study the geometry, and prioritize effectively.

[golfdu]

Is it possible to use weight shift with "deep hands"? I've tried ingraining the 2-plane swing but it didn't work, plus wedge shots were killing me. I'm not really a S&T guy, I still prefer weight shift (and please don't argue and bash with this, iacas) but is it possible to swing in-in path with deep hands? Plus how deep would your divots be and where should it point if you started the ball straight at the target? Can you do the sand drill from "The Impact Zone" (draw line in sand, hit divots ahead of that line) with deep hands?

[miami8miami]

How many degrees ideally should your hands move inward on the backswing? Around twenty? I'd say that picture of Charlie is about twenty degrees in from the ball give or take.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by miami8miami

How many degrees ideally should your hands move inward on the backswing? Around twenty? I'd say that picture of Charlie is about twenty degrees in from the ball give or take.

It'll depend on a lot of things. The hands must go inward and upward, though, just like the clubhead. Back, up, and in. Key #4.

[miami8miami]

So I've been thinking about this subject for a while now, and hopefully a few pictures will help illustrate my thoughts.

When i think of deep hands, i think of Charlie Wi. His hands are on the elbow plane, shoulders have turned at a right angle to his spine and his arms have not lifted off his body. Thus, he appears to have a compact backswing.

I think i have a very solid backswing too. I do the many of the same things he does during the backswing, my left shoulder goes down, hands in, arms don't lift off the ribcage. However i noticed that by the time my shoulders have turned 90 degrees, my arms are still at A3 rather than where they should be at A4. My right arm is folded at about 90 degrees, but PA 4 is not loaded across my chest.

file://localhost/Users/adamico323/Desktop/Image.jpg

To get any further height and depth into my backswing and to get the shaft to where A4 should b, I over rotate my shoulders to 110, even 120 degrees.

file://localhost/Users/adamico323/Desktop/photo.PNG

I don't know what type of compensations this can lead too on the downswing, but i would assume it is better to be closer to "the model" for lack of a better term. Because of this compensation, the hands may work just as deep as a guy like Charlie Wi, but i don't think I'm loading PA's 1 or 4 fully or fast enough by the time A4 comes.

What do you guys think?

[2thetee]

Originally Posted by iacas

So that's what I mean by deep. My hands tend to kind of shove away from my body instead of purely rotating back (and thus in), which leads me to roll the clubhead back with my hands/wrists/forearms. I recover pretty well from there to get into some "okay" positions, but if I don't get my hands deep I generally don't rotate my right hip up and back enough, and then I rotate it too much and don't get enough push coming down.

What is the proper method of rotating the hands/wrists/forearms? If you do not rotate, then your flat left wrist would be at a 90 degree angle to the club head arc and the club face would be shut -- right? Somewhere after P2 it seems either the shoulder, forearm or the wrist seem to have to rotate. The weight of the club head should cause a rotation - right? I do not think I have ever heard you discuss this point.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 2thetee

What is the proper method of rotating the hands/wrists/forearms? If you do not rotate, then your flat left wrist would be at a 90 degree angle to the club head arc and the club face would be shut -- right? Somewhere after P2 it seems either the shoulder, forearm or the wrist seem to have to rotate. The weight of the club head should cause a rotation - right? I do not think I have ever heard you discuss this point.

It wouldn't be shut, actually - it'd be square to the arc the entire time. Rotation (third accumulator) along with the second accumulator helps to keep the sweet spot on the plane. If it was just as easy to swing a golf club - and just as powerful - without rotating the left arm (note: the clubhead would be hanging out over our heads at the top of our backswing), we'd all do it because the timing of the rolling of the third accumulator would not be necessary.

But rolling the third is important because, again, it not only gets the sweet spot on the same plane as the forces we'll generate on the downswing, but also because it increases the distance the clubhead can travel. It's another lever system that adds power to the swing.

At some point in the backswing, you'll rotate your left arm about 90°. You'll then rotate this about 90° during the downswing, too.

At A2 if the leading edge of the clubhead matches your inclination, you've rotated none or very little. 90° at this point would be perpendicular to your spine. Almost nobody does that, but lots of people get "toe up." The rotation most often happens from A2 to A4, and then on the downswing, starts later and finishes later (which is why it's still toe up at A6 - you don't get a LOT of energy from #3/#2 but you get enough to make a difference).

The weight of the clubhead would actually cause the clubhead to hang open. The CG of the clubhead is outside the shaft plane, so the "toe" is heavier than the heel. That's why we see shaft droop, though I don't think shafts ever really droop enough to get the CG inline with the shaft's axis.

[2thetee]

Makes sense. If you stand straight up, hold the club straight out in front of you at shoulder height with wrist cock; rotate your shoulders simulating a back swing, rotate your forearm 90 degrees, and then side tilt  towards the ball then you end up in perfect position. I saw that on a video somewhere.

I would not have guessed that there was 90 degrees of forearm rotation.

I wondered when you see Jason Dufner practice a back swing with his driver. It looks like he simulates flipping the back of left wrist to the sky to flatten the swing plane. Lots of rotation.

So does forearm rotation flatten the swing plane and allow your hands to go deeper?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 2thetee

So does forearm rotation flatten the swing plane and allow your hands to go deeper?

No. If anything it might inhibit it slightly.

Lou, ask me and I'll show you all this sometime in person. Very easy to understand in person, I think.

For now, check out this post with these dumb graphics:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane/0_100#post_406962

[mvmac]

Yes like Erik said, the more those forearms rotate early the harder it makes to get them "in".

Another one, both players have hinged the club head about the same amount up but the rotation of the forearms is different, note the different club face angles.  When the hands goes straighter back, the toe will tend to be toe up and when the hands go in and up along the sweet spot plane, they will usually look pretty square to the arc.

[nevets88]

Curious - how does Fowler hit chips when his clubhead doesn't go past 9 o'clock? With that backswing, there must be a serious course correction? I can't find any video where his clubhead stays short of 9 o'clock.

[mvmac]

Fowler is hitting pitch shots there, using the bounce, much different technique than full swing.  I would bet the club is more "toe up" at A2 to engage the bounce.  Can see how the left arm is flexing and club head over taking his hands on the followthrough.

[GaryH]

This is EXACTLY what my instructor is working with me on and what he insists is the master key to the golf swing.  Very interesting thread.

[migueldds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by david_wedzik

None

David ,

I just found this post of yours , and wondered if you still recommend this drill ?

Thanks for any advice you might have, and if you have other suggestions

that might help ingrain the feel of proper depth of the hands ,

Michael

[loadwire]

Originally Posted by GaryH

This is EXACTLY what my instructor is working with me on

Same here.  Particularly with the driver I have a tendency to get too steep which was causing me major problems.  He thought it may be because the driver is so light, people just have a tendency to pick it up more on the backswing.

When trying to get my hands nice and deep with the irons one slight problem I'm having is it tends to encourage me to do a more sweeping action in my downswing, which was something I was trying to get away from.  Finding it a bit tricky to combine deep hands and more of a 'striking down' action.  Probably just a matter of practice for me and getting used to the new 'top-of-swing' position.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Fowler is hitting pitch shots there, using the bounce, much different technique than full swing.  I would bet the club is more "toe up" at A2 to engage the bounce.  Can see how the left arm is flexing and club head over taking his hands on the followthrough.

He's hitting high soft pitches, you can see the clubface is open.

Here's one were he takes a bit of a shorter swing, he still hitting more of a pitch, than a chip and run. He might be a person who likes to use loftier wedges, and pitch the ball more than chips. But he takes a shorter backswing on this one, just about waist high.

[nevets88]

What do you think of this FB post? The guy on the right has more tilt and his hips are turned more, so his arms should be deeper, no?

Asian Golf Institute

Has your pro ever told you the importance of your hand position in relation to your chest or for that matter even addressed this issue?

The further your hands get away from the center is akin to moving your impact behind the ball. Can you play golf this way? Sure you can, but that would require some form of compensation. An easier way to play would be to follow how John Senden does it. Check to see your hands are...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=515520765175877&set;=a.190081584386465.48682.101490443245580&type;=1

[iacas]

What do you think of this FB post?

It'd be easier to make a comparison except from face-on you'd see John Senden doesn't turn very much (which is not very common among PGA Tour pros) by that point in his swing. He gains more depth later. If you truly wanted to measure where the hands are relative to the chest you'd want to be square to the shoulders or sternum or something. [img]http://f.cl.ly/items/2P1x3T0n1A0T1A1G2x3V/Analyzr%20Image%20Export.jpg[/img] P.S. I looked quickly, and then when I looked again realized it's José Maria on the right, duh. But the point stands and most PGA Tour pros are about 90% turned by A3.