The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[verse214]

One of the things I try to explain to SnT naysayers is that we are not describing radical changes. In answer to your question many of the best players display many of these principles without "trying" - that is likely why at times things seem similar. That said...there are many top players and teachers out there still teaching and portraying things like I have noted in this photo. Dave

I'm not really a nay-sayer. My only point is I don't see why someone needs to ascribe to a "stack and tilt" teacher when everything taught in stack and tilt is just "good swing fundamentals". I've never had an S&T; pro as a teacher and I also have never had a lesson where the pro told me to shift my weight back or do things that S&T; claims a "traditional swing" promotes (i.e. any of the items in the chart contained in the article of the front page about the S&T; book)

Also, Phil has been known to have notoriously bad full swing mechanics. If there were really such a thing as a "traditional swing", every other pro that Bennett and Plumber do not teach should exhibit these "poor" characteristics no? S&T; has been marketed as a "revolutionary" way of swinging and that is why you may have the impression that others project this radical image onto S&T;, when in actuality it is because of the way S&T; portrays itself. Also, the majority of the population would not know that Sean O Hair is an ideal S&T; candidate just because Foley doesn't call it S&T.; My current pro (part of Logical Golf founded by Robert Baker, who teaches at the facility I recently joined) studied under Foley himself for years and he actually admitted not knowing much about S&T; when he was probably teaching similar ideas himself. Sorry for the long winded post but all I'm trying to say is that I don't think that it's right how S&T; tries to promote the idea of a "traditional swing"... if all of these pics of historically great ball strikers are actually exhibiting S&T; qualities, then there really isn't and was never the "traditional swing" described as per S&T; in the first place.

[iacas]

I've never had an S&T; pro as a teacher and I also have never had a lesson where the pro told me to shift my weight back or do things that S&T; claims a "traditional swing" promotes (i.e. any of the items in the chart contained in the article of the front page about the S&T; book)

Then count yourself lucky.

Three things differ tremendously for me based on the instruction I've seen (and continue to see):

1. Deep hand path versus one that's more linear back and then up.
2. Weight staying forward (or feeling as if it is) with a spine that stays vertical versus one that's leaning away from the target right from the start.
3. The amount of forward hip push the typical teacher wants versus S&T.;

There are a lot of other smaller things, like maintaining the flying wedge versus most instructors wanting you to "release" the clubhead.

If there were really such a thing as a "traditional swing", every other pro that Bennett and Plumber do not teach should exhibit these "poor" characteristics no?

No. Pros have figured things out. Phil Mickelson proves you can have a great career with a fairly crappy swing just by being loaded with talent.

Average golfers going to see pros don't have Phil's talent (or time to groove that talent, anyway).

if all of these pics of historically great ball strikers are actually exhibiting S&T; qualities, then there really isn't and was never the "traditional swing" described as per S&T; in the first place.

Nah, the logic falls apart there.

Nicklaus exhibits a few pieces. Hogan a few pieces. Tiger a few pieces. And yet none of them exhibit the full S&T; swing... and even Nicklaus talks about "loading into his right side," which golf instructors then take and twist around and convey to students improperly in a way that gets students back but never forward enough and all sorts of other things. Again, you seem to feel this way because you don't seem to have run into teachers that teach the "traditional" swing... which either means you've been freakishly lucky or you haven't yet paid attention closely enough or seen how they teach students. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and call you freakishly lucky! I've seen countless pros teaching what Andy and Mike call the "traditional" swing. Indeed:

[david_wedzik]

I'm not really a nay-sayer.

I wasn't meaning to say you were at all. I was thinking it sounded more like the instructor (and many others) was the naysayer.

My only point is I don't see why someone needs to ascribe to a "stack and tilt" teacher when everything taught in stack and tilt is just "good swing fundamentals".

Just good swing fundamentals as I (and you) see it. We agree on that...however...there are MANY out there that don't believe they are good swing fundamentals. I would say they are as so many of these principles are exhibited by the games greats. Also even those that believe SnT is just good mechanics might not teach the proper depth in the handpath or the extreme straight forward motion on the downswing (for example).

I've never had an S&T; pro as a teacher and I also have never had a lesson where the pro told me to shift my weight back or do things that S&T; claims a "traditional swing" promotes (i.e. any of the items in the chart contained in the article of the front page about the S&T; book)

You are very lucky and that may be where some of your confusion comes in...please read the post right before yours in this thread for one example.

Also, Phil has been known to have notoriously bad full swing mechanics. If there were really such a thing as a "traditional swing", every other pro that Bennett and Plumber do not teach should exhibit these "poor" characteristics no?

You asked for a comparison photo and I gave you one - of one of the best players in the game - which showed the differences b/w SnT and, for lack of a better term, a traditional move off the ball. I could have used a number of others.

Also, the majority of the population would not know that Sean O Hair is an ideal S&T; candidate just because Foley doesn't call it S&T.;

Foley doesn't call it SnT for a very good reason...he is teaching it but staying away from the name part. There is a story there but not appropriate to spend time on it here.

all I'm trying to say is that I don't agree with the idea that S&T; tries to promote of an incorrect "traditional swing"... if all of these pics of historically great ball strikers are actually exhibiting S&T; qualities, then there really isn't and was never the "traditional swing" described as per S&T; in the first place.

Here's the thing - yes...many, many historically great ball strikers display many of the SnT pieces and that is why we point them out. And many other great players shift their weight to the right...drift off the ball...maintain the right knee flex, don't turn their shoulders on as steep an angle as SnT prescribes, etc. The greats of the game that do these things are 1 in a 1,000,000 talents btw and can get away with it. The average 12 hcp. is DEAD once they move their head and centers 4-6 inches to the right on the backswing.

When we say "traditional" we are talking about things like teaching players to take the hands straight back away from the ball (David Toms), high hands at the top (Davis Love), turning the hips/opening them quickly for power. I'm not saying that everything in a more traditional swing (and I agree I HATE this terminology) is against what SnT would prescribe but many TOP instructors teach the things I mentioned here. I understand your point in this thought process but we are not saying that ALL great players display all the SnT principles. Nor are we saying that every player, that is not Stack and Tilt, swings exactly like the traditional description in the book. Just trying to point out the similarities and differences and illustrate them the best we can.

[i-Guy]

It took you a few months? I think I'd have been gone in seconds.

I hear you...but he is a good teacher and a very good player who teaches his swing...for lack of better description the traditional method of shifting my weight to the right and then trying to time it back on to the left side correctly...I will admit that on some days I could make this transistion successfully and hit the ball rather well (distance and dispersion)...but consistency was not in the equation. I really feel after only three weeks that I can go to the range or golf course and hit shots more consistenly with the S&T; and I have more to learn about the pattern...the two times I have played with the S&T; (see prior post) my playing partner kept making comments about how much more control my game seem to have. I had only one penalty stroke (PAR 3...good 5 iron swing that the wind got a hold of and pushed it right into the water...actually I was playing aggressive and fired at the pin where I should have aimed left and calcualted for the wind)

Where do you line up the clubface? The stock shot is a push draw and S&T; asks that your clubface be lined up just a little right of the target. If you hit it straight at the target then the clubface wasn't slightly open at impact like they prefer.

Good point...that goes along with the "Ball Flight" concept of the S&T; in that club face controls the starting line...I will try to address the ball with a more open club face and see if that helps...thanks...

[david_wedzik]

David, I purchased the DVD and I am into the 2nd disc but I am having a problem on the range and maybe you could give me a little guidance as follows: My misses are balls that either start at the target and then draw left or start a little left and keep going left as opposed to the ball starting a little right of the target with a slight draw or just simply flying straight when I feel like I have made a good S&T; move. What do you think I am doing wrong that causes my misses? Thanks and keep promoting this swing as it can help a lot of people…

Love the post! As far as the overdraws go I saw Erik hit on one thing I would have mentioned (push/draw struck with slightly open face so as to start right of target). The other thing to keep in mind when hitting this overdraw is that the clubface could simply be closing too fast on the downswing (rapid clubface rotation) or the grip itself could be too strong. The grip would be the simplest solution - If it is the face too rapidly rotating you need to try some things like: a) pushing your hips more straight forward and keeping the right leg straighter into the downswing so your upper axis will stay more stable (as the upper torso drifts back during the downswing the arms/hands take over and rotate the face...or b) getting your arms straighter/faster on the downswing. Allow your left arm to work down your chest quicker and your right arm to straighten faster so that your right shoulder won't be forced to "tip" back and towards the right foot. As this happens the face rotates too quickly as well. Without seeing the swing I'm guessing a little bit but the issue likely falls into one of these places.

Dave

[boogielicious]

Dave,

A lot of the S&T; technique makes sense to me. I've really just started golfing this year and am doing pretty well with ball striking, but am inconsistent. My best iron ball striking is usually with the 9, PW and 52 and 58 wedges when I'm using more of a full pitching swing, weight balanced or on the left side at the top of the swing.

I am getting the S&T; book for Xmas and am looking forward to it. My question is how to find an instructor in the Boston, MA area. Are there any recommendations?

Thanks,

Scott

[david_wedzik]

Dave,

Scott - fantastic that you are starting out and getting exposed to SnT - if golfers had started with SnT from the beginning my belief is that we would have generations of drawers/hookers instead of faders/slicers. Just my opinion but that is what the geometry says

- Anyway...send me a PM and I will get back to you with some options for you re: instruction. Dave

[i-Guy]

Love the post! As far as the overdraws go I saw Erik hit on one thing I would have mentioned (push/draw struck with slightly open face so as to start right of target). The other thing to keep in mind when hitting this overdraw is that the clubface could simply be closing too fast on the downswing (rapid clubface rotation) or the grip itself could be too strong. The grip would be the simplest solution - If it is the face too rapidly rotating you need to try some things like: a) pushing your hips more straight forward and keeping the right leg straighter into the downswing so your upper axis will stay more stable (as the upper torso drifts back during the downswing the arms/hands take over and rotate the face...or b) getting your arms straighter/faster on the downswing. Allow your left arm to work down your chest quicker and your right arm to straighten faster so that your right shoulder won't be forced to "tip" back and towards the right foot. As this happens the face rotates too quickly as well. Without seeing the swing I'm guessing a little bit but the issue likely falls into one of these places.

Dave,

Thanks for responding so quickly and yes I agree with what Eric said and plan to take a look at my clubface at address and making sure it is a tad open to the target line at address. Also I think my grip is fine as it has never been a strong grip and is pretty neutral....but I do have a couple of questions as follows: a) pushing your hips more straight forward and keeping the right leg straighter into the downswing so your upper axis will stay more stable (as the upper torso drifts back during the downswing the arms/hands take over and rotate the face) When you say "pushing your hips more straight forward" I assume you mean more toward the target and out of the way as I may be sliding into the ball? b) getting your arms straighter/faster on the downswing. Allow your left arm to work down your chest quicker and your right arm to straighten faster so that your right shoulder won't be forced to "tip" back and towards the right foot. This makes sense to me as I think sometimes (seeing that I have only been using the S&T; for three weeks) that my swing is a combination of two swings...I think I could be trying to hold lag (as taught to me in my other swing) which can cause the right shoulder to drop down and tip back and from the S&T; backswing position would make the face rotate faster. So I need to just foucs on straighting my right arm faster on the downswing..correct? Also could this be caused by me trying to make too much of a backswing and possibly having some lift at the top of my BS and getting me out of position for the downswing? If so, in that case would I just focus on a shorter BS to stay in a better stacked position? I am also going to watch the DVD again and look at the part about the downswing but a huge Thanks ...and man I wish I was much closer to Erie to come see you so you could look at my swing!!!

[Leftygolfer]

I'm interested and I am planning on buying the book if for anything knowledge. I have a hard time with the idea that you are changing your spin angle throughout the swing. This seems really hard to get back to the same angle to strike the ball purely.

I am sure the book will answer this but this idea seems so backwards of anything I see good players do. I have never seen a good player change there spin angle. A very common flaw of high handicappers and a problem I experience when I am playing poorly (standing up a bit and not hitting it purely)

[lewisgl]

I just got the new Stack and Tilt book a few days ago and have read just over half of it. I really like some of their ideas very much, which have been well thought out and seem to make sense to me. I had always been taught to load the right leg, keep the right knee braced, don't take the club inside (taking the club had always been a natural tendency for me, as well as a lot of folks probably) and have struggled with these ideas for years. I have never been able to turn the shoulders anything close to 90 degrees without some hip movement either. I have over a 100 golf swing books at home here and many of the conventional swing ideas mentioned in the Stack and Tilt book are in indeed in many of these books. I went over to the Range yesterday and tried to use the S&T; principles and it helped with the contact pretty much straight away, and undoubtedly I wasn't doing everything right. Even hit the longer clubs and driver pretty good with it too. I plan on giving this thing a good try.

[kfowler]

...don't take the club inside...

Just wanted to comment on this as I think it's one of the misconceptions of SnT. I say this because I misunderstood this when I first read about SnT in GD. I misinterpreted this as taking the club head way to the inside. So in essence when the club is parallel, the club head is much further inside than your hands. However, when you read the book and watch players like Charlie Wi, it's their hands that are inside but the club head is stilled lined up straight with your hands at parallel. This is something I did not understand at first.

Perhaps those that know better can comment on this.

[iacas]

I am sure the book will answer this but this idea seems so backwards of anything I see good players do. I have never seen a good player change there spine angle.

On the contrary, every good golfer changes his spine angle. The problem is how you're defining "spine angle" versus the preferred term of S&T; folk: "inclination to the ground."

Your spine angle changes. The center of your swing - however - does not (or should not). It can be a difficult concept to grasp, but there are a lot of good images out there that show how the spine angle changes. If your spine angle doesn't change (i.e. you stay in flexion), simply put, your head slides back and then forward. It has to - you rotate the hips which rotates the head. Even ten degrees of hip rotation can move the head several inches to the right on the backswing and to the left. S&T; keeps your head and your upper-center (center of your sternum, roughly) in place by the three moves: stand up, tilt left, rotate. Since you're tilting left at the same rate as you're rotating and standing up, your "inclination to the ground" remains consistent. Here's the way you "typically" measure spine angle: Note that Charlie Wi's spine angle looks consistent if you mis-apply the term: Note how his "spine angle" remains the same, but really, that's his inclination to the ground. It's kept his head in the same spot, but his spine has gone from bent over at the hips to extended or straightened (as if "standing up") at the top of his backswing. The only time in S&T; that your spine angle truly matches your setup is roughly when the club is parallel to the ground prior to impact on the downswing ("P6"). Watch for this YouTube clip to begin working sometime soon. I'm trying to get Dave to publish it.

I had always been taught to load the right leg, keep the right knee braced, don't take the club inside (taking the club had always been a natural tendency for me, as well as a lot of folks probably) and have struggled with these ideas for years.

Note the other post that just talked about this: there's a difference between taking the club inside and taking your hands inside/back/up (deeper).

Perhaps those that know better can comment on this.

Yes, that's accurate. And I think you're right that a lot of people might misunderstand that part.

[david_wedzik]

a) pushing your hips more straight forward and keeping the right leg straighter into the downswing so your upper axis will stay more stable (as the upper torso drifts back during the downswing the arms/hands take over and rotate the face)

Just think tailbone straight toward the target, further and continuously - this is what allows the pelvis to release and keeps the hips and shoulders rotating. The right leg being "less" flexed will help with this as well (right foot will "bank" coming into impact rather than having the right knee overflex and the heel coming straight off the ground. See this youtube video:

As to the arms straightening - right arm straightening faster w/ left arm pulling down (left thumb moves away from right shoulder). These two really go together pretty much. Dave

[Leftygolfer]

Thanks for the clarity regarding spine angle or inclination to the ground.

I am curious about the book. I just don't see it being a less complicated of a swing than any other method that most teachers teach. The spine works in a very similar method in every swing. When you turn and stay down, effectively you are now tilting to the side. But the feeling I have when I am hitting the ball well is that I have the same angle. When I can't turn anymore and not keep the same distance from the ball or lose that, back swing is finished. Of course you don't want your head to sway 4 or 5 inches from where is starts. That is an impossible way to swing a golf club effectively. I have never seen a good player move that far away from the target and then hit it solidly.

[verse214]

Then count yourself lucky.

Thanks Erik and David for the explanation; definitely answered my questions... I have not been playing for too long and have only worked with two teachers in the past. Looking back I have definitely experienced a fair share of incorrect advice from people who are not teachers or PGA members..

The things I have read about S&T; (majority on this site) have definitely helped me create somewhat of a filter so that I can know what kind of golf advice to take in and what to filter out. Great thread...

[iacas]

I am curious about the book. I just don't see it being a less complicated of a swing than any other method that most teachers teach.

But you're not speaking from experience here, right? I'm really asking - you haven't tried it yet, right? I'll give you two ways in which it's simpler.

1) Your head doesn't move off the ball - and even if your head doesn't, your weight doesn't. 2) The backswing is a one-plane swing which doesn't require lifting the arms. This comes about in many forms, but often the separation comes early because you're taught to take your hands back straighter away from the target rather than inward on the circle. Both of those are timing moves that make the golf swing tougher.

The spine works in a very similar method in every swing.

It doesn't, though. The spine in the "get to the right side" or "reverse K" swing works substantially different than in the Stack and Tilt swing. Hogan's spine at the top from the face-on view was far more vertical than the spine angles of a lot of people since... I don't think you're seeing things quite the way they are. 5-15 degrees difference has a substantial effect on the ball.

But the feeling I have when I am hitting the ball well is that I have the same angle.

That's neither here nor there. Your "spine angle" or "flex at the hips" changes whether it feels like it does or not. If your head stays in the same spot and your hips rotate at all, your spine flex and angle has changed.

Of course you don't want your head to sway 4 or 5 inches from where is starts. That is an impossible way to swing a golf club effectively. I have never seen a good player move that far away from the target and then hit it solidly.

I have. Plenty of times. And again, the point deserves to be made that PGA Tour players can get away with it because it's their job. It's a death move for a regular golfer who doesn't spend 8 hours a day working on his golf swing.

And the point is that teachers say things like "maintain your spine angle" and "keep your right knee flexed" and "load into the right side" and what do students do? They stay bent over, their head slides to the right, and they never get far enough forward coming down. And neither of these guys are the worst offenders by any stretch. But there you go - a one-in-a-million PGA Tour talent doing it and a guy teaching it.

[i-Guy]

Watch for this YouTube clip to begin working sometime soon. I'm trying to get Dave to publish it.

Great video iacas and thanks to Dave for sharing as that explains the "inclination" to the ground concept perfectly...

[lewisgl]

Just wanted to comment on this as I think it's one of the misconceptions of SnT. I say this because I misunderstood this when I first read about SnT in GD. I misinterpreted this as taking the club head way to the inside. So in essence when the club is parallel, the club head is much further inside than your hands. However, when you read the book and watch players like Charlie Wi, it's their hands that are inside but the club head is stilled lined up straight with your hands at parallel. This is something I did not understand at first.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had a wrong assumption on that. The hands are inside but the club stays outside the hands well into the backswing as shown in Charlie Wi's swing video.