The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[PS90]

Hey guys,

Hopefully one of the S&T; experts can give me some ideas here. I realize a video clip would be a lot more helpful, but I'll try to explain. I went out in some decent weather for the first time since last October and tried the S&T; swing for the first time.

Turned out to be a disaster I have no idea what my problem(s) were, but I was basically hitting two shots - BADLY topping the ball - to the extent that it skidded along the ground for about 20 feet, OR a big push (and even some that were a big push with a slice).

Does anyone have an idea what I'm doing wrong? Or does it sound like there are just too many swing errors going on to explain it all? When swinging conventionally in years past, I very rarely hit the ball thin, and my biggest problem was a pretty severe pull-slice. Right now, I would rather swing like I used to with a bad slice, than squib the ball along the ground.

I think one major problem was that I was overly-exaggerating the weight-forward - to the extent that my club head was coming down basically right onto the ball - pretty much skulling/blading the ball right into the ground, which resulted in a seriously topped ball. Does anyone agree?

That might also explain why I was pushing it so far to the left (I'm a lefty), since I was under the impression that a push was caused by hitting too far back in the swing-circle. But, then, the question is - how was it slicing as well? I thought it was near impossible to slice on the inside-out (or back half) part of the circle. Is that not right? Or was my clubface angle WAY too open?

Someone help! Please! Thanks for any thoughts anyone has.

[iacas]

PS90, without video, it's tough to say. Oftentimes feel isn't real, so you may be right or you may be wrong, and I don't want to give too much advice without knowing how correct it is - it may lead you down the wrong path.

If you were pushing, your clubface was open. That's about the only thing we can say definitively.

[Leftygolfer]

I played on Saturday in the muck. Didn't score well but very happy with the changes in my ball flight. I am hitting it much higher and farther than I ever have. I also hit more pure shots than I have in a long time. I hit some shots perfectly online with a push, 3-4 yard draw. Looked great. My misses varied. I hit a couple of slight pull hooks particularly with the driver. I also hit a couple of pushes with the irons. Based on my ball flight and old tendancies, I am pretty confident I am swinging to out to in except on the pulls where it is the opossite (it is confusing becuase a pull hook and the over draw/push are opposites so you really have to focuse on where you start it to figure out if I came over the top, or hit it too much from the inside.)

Any drills that you can recommend. In the book, it says that fault tree is coming too much from the inside but they don't really say how to work on it, just what can cause this.

[Gordon McTavish]

I played on Sunday for the first time since last October, attempting to transition to Stack & Tilt after reading the Bennett / Plummer book.

Surprisingly, I was making better contact with the fairway metals than the irons, but at least now the enlightenment of the book is that I can identify my faults based on ball-flight (seems like and over-the-top move, or something that is cause an out-in swing path).

I have to thank this thread and the discussions around Stack & Tilt. I had previously written off this method of teaching as a fad since I had already read so much instruction that incorporated the weight-shift.

Had I not taken and interest in this thread and read the book, I'd probably be spending the next year trying to get as much weight as possible onto my right side in the backswing without really knowing how to get onto the front foot on the way down again.

The talk about "pushing off the ground" really caught my interest. After reading the book, it occured to me that on the occasions when I hit a really good shot, I'd have a similar feeling... almost finishing the swing on tip-toe.

Here's hoping for more success this year, and good luck to the other S&Ters; in this thread.

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

To continue on the thread's updates. I got to play this weekend for the first time since making the switch to the S&T.; I have had a few opportunities to hit at the range and try the swing, but they were few and far between in the last 2 months.

I am sold. I warmed up on the range and was really hitting well, much purer than I have before. I was chomping at the bit and I couldn't wait until our tee time. Finally our time came and from there it was fairways and greens on the front. Sadly, my putting was terrible (as it can be) and I 3-putted 7 of 9 greens (ouch) but tallied a 44. If I could have only 2 putted all the front, I would have shot a 37. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...I guess, but I was impressed with my new swing.

Sadly, the back was an exact opposite. I still hit most of my shots well, but for a strech of 3 or 4 holes my driver got away from me. Considering I only had about 3 range sessions and am relying mostly on this thread and youtube for instruction I was impressed. I can't wait until spring when I can really get out and play.

[kfowler]

Just wanted to chime in that I received the S&T; DVD series yesterday. It seems to be really good compliment to the book. I gotten through most of the first disk and I believe I better understand some of the concepts after seeing them in "live" action. The book and the DVD are kind of like having a text book coupled with a lecture. Good stuff.

I think one of the most beneficial pieces is reinforcing why you're doing what you're doing at setup and takeaway.

[Leftygolfer]

I am curious about the DVDs but they are alot of money. I have the book and youtube. I am very interested in seeing how I play once I can quit thinking about changes and just play. A question for all. Does anyone else when they started changing to s & t feel like they are leaning towards the target on the back swing. In the book one of the pros says this is the feeling they had. Anyone else and if so, have you verified through video they are doing this. I am having good results with this so I think it is perception and not reality. I don't have a video camera so it is hard to tell.

[iacas]

Does anyone else when they started changing to s & t feel like they are leaning towards the target on the back swing.

If you've spent your life leaning towards your back side or shifting back that way, it may feel as if a vertical spine feels like you're leaning towards the target. Yes. That is a feeling. It's common, but as you seem to know, you shouldn't actually be leaning towards the target.

Watch Steve Elkington's pre-shot routine. He exaggerates the feeling of leaning that way and then hits the shot normally.

[david_wedzik]

If you've spent your life leaning towards your back side or shifting back that way, it may feel as if a vertical spine feels like you're leaning towards the target. Yes. That is a feeling. It's common, but as you seem to know, you shouldn't actually be leaning towards the target.

Well stated...good post...very important to note this. We sometimes teach "sensations" to an extreme to get a point across - that is what Elk was doing in the linked video from Erik.

Dave

[woodzie264]

Many look at my swing and think it is full of flaws, but I have learned how to hit is straight with what I have... so who am I to judge what works or does not work. No one person has all the answers.

that sounds like Harvey Pennick himself - I totally agree. Obviously playing to a +4 proves it.

When reveiwing the principles of the S&T;, my swing (while it isn't as pretty as those on TV) incorporates it's priciples of minimal weight shift, keeping it forward - started this about 6 months to improve my ball striking consistency...dropping my handicap from an 18 to a 14, playing at times to an 11. I think if you can make adjustments to your swing and consistently reproduce your swing, you'll figure out how to lower your scores regardless of your swing pattern.

[uttexas]

With S&T;, I'm having the best success "feeling" that my right (rear shoulder) is leaning toward the target at the top of the backswing. Then on the forward swing through impact, I reverse the process and "feel" that my left (front shoulder) is pushing away from the target. I'm finding that maintaining the wrist cock throughout the forward swing and impact is key. I "feel" as though I swing my arms through impact, holding off any releasing of the wrists.

[colin007]

i think i might be sold on this, have been to the range a few times and have been working on a lot of the S&T; principles, one issue i am having is keeping my head, shoulders and upper torso from moving too much toward the target on the downswing. my backswing looks good, turning in place, staying over the ball, but when i come down and try to puch toward the target with the hips, my head and shoulders move too.

ball striking has definitely become more pure (not always straight - some pretty strong hooks - but almost always hitting it hard).

[Dr_Fu_Manchu]

Just got back from the range and my irons were fine, but my driver was just terrible using the S&T; swing. Today, for some reason, I was hitting a slice that started on my line and then peeled off to the right hard. Without seeing a video, does any one have an idea why this was happening?

Thanks

[iacas]

Just got back from the range and my irons were fine, but my driver was just terrible using the S&T; swing. Today, for some reason, I was hitting a slice that started on my line and then peeled off to the right hard. Without seeing a video, does any one have an idea why this was happening?

What's the book tell you?

I'd guess you were spinning out and coming over it rather than pushing forward and staying on the plane.

[The_Pharaoh]

I have now played 4 rounds with Stack & Tilt and for me the results have been immediate and astonishing. I have gone from only hitting the sweet spot 10% of the time using the conventional swing to 90% with S&T.; It not only makes perfect sense but is easy to put into practice. And that's because it works unlike the conventional swing! For 22 years I have struggled with my swing not really knowing how I was going to hit the ball or in which direction the ball was going to fly. Now I do. I have heard all sorts of stupid comments like, "it's a reverse pivot", "you can't hit a driver with that swing", "it only works for a while" etc. All not true.

If you want to improve your ball striking, switch to S&T; NOW! Stop wasting your time trying to swing it the way we've all been taught over the years.

[Leftygolfer]

I have now played 4 rounds with Stack & Tilt and for me the results have been immediate and astonishing. I have gone from only hitting the sweet spot 10% of the time using the conventional swing to 90% with S&T.; It not only makes perfect sense but is easy to put into practice. And that's because it works unlike the conventional swing! For 22 years I have struggled with my swing not really knowing how I was going to hit the ball or in which direction the ball was going to fly. Now I do. I have heard all sorts of stupid comments like, "it's a reverse pivot", "you can't hit a driver with that swing", "it only works for a while" etc. All not true. If you want to improve your ball striking, switch to S&T; NOW! Stop wasting your time trying to swing it the way we've all been taught over the years.

I couldn't agree more. I didn't get to play this weekend but went to golf galaxy and hit some demos just to hit some balls. Used impact tape and I mis-hit maybe 2 of the 30-40 balls I hit. I also went to the park with 40 balls with my LW and a 60 yard target. I hit so many so high, flushed, only missed one righ (I'm LH and the pull/hook is my old miss). It is so much easier to have a good strike. The ground was frozen but I was still consistantly taking a divot. The consistancy I am experiencing is so much greater than ever and I am hardly playing/practicing at all because of winter.

I have more power, not consistantly over-hooking the ball and know what I am doing when I do and other misses, and I just couldn't be happier with the improvement I have had. This is the biggest leap in my playing ability in my life. Also, finally understanding how to hit a push draw instead of the straight draw is so much easier to control. WOW.

[canadianpro]

S & T is not a Fad!

I have been in the golf business for45 years (wow...that scares me). I have been coached and taught how to teach golf by the PGA since I became a member in 1965 and have listened to many seminars, read golf instructional manuals etc. and most (other than square to square whuich was a disaster) simply re-write the "standard golf swing". S&T; does not profess to be the only method, it is a method that is easy to teach beginning players and it is a swing pattern that can be repeated easier than others. I can guarantee it will not go away.

[MSDOGS1976]

If you've spent your life leaning towards your back side or shifting back that way, it may feel as if a vertical spine feels like you're leaning towards the target. Yes. That is a feeling. It's common, but as you seem to know, you shouldn't actually be leaning towards the target.

That is a good drill/reminder to do during the round. A couple of years ago I found myself getting stuck on my right side and my pro gave me a couple of drills to overcome the problem. Not like this video but putting my right foot several inches behind my left and barely letting my right toe touch, just for balance. Most of my weight as a result was on my left side. So I basically tried to emulate this on the course when playing. I feel I have slid into a s&t; method by accident. I'm going to use a few of the tips in the video's next time I'm on the practice tee. Over time, I still slide back to my old ways and get stuck on the right side. Like an old dumb boxer trying to learn something new.