My argument

[ET-Taylor]

I play and practice every day nearly though the summer and im 28 HCAP

[65withatriple]

Look, that's a completely invalid conclusion. It simply does not follow at all. The argument that anyone can be a pro if they practice enough does not in any way imply that talent and natural ability do not matter.

We will just have to agree to disagree because to me thats all it implies. If "anyone"....which is the key word IMHO..... can practice a certain amount to become the best at something implies that practice is all it takes. And how does it not imply that talent and natural ability do not matter when saying "anyone who practices enough can become pro"? I don't see talent or natural ability in the statement but I do see practice. The point is if they thought with talent and natural abilty and enough practice anyone could become pro it would be a totally different argument. The threads I read to make this post are 100% saying that practice is the only ingredient needed. I understand your point and maybe if I had not read the numerous threads about this subject on this forum I would agree with you. But if you will search you will find many have the opinion that practice is all it takes for anyone to become "pro".

[senorchipotle]

I couldn't disagree more with the OP. if you get the PROPER training, not just hitting lots of balls with no real vision, or a vision which you yourself don't know how to attain. if you get a great coach who KNOWS how to teach, and you can be taught, and you practice hours a day. i truly think just about any able bodied individual can get to playing + handicap golf. as far as making it to the tour, that's where the mental game comes in. perfect example, look at david toms vs. camilo. one looks like he can't do much of anything athletically, and the other looks like he could play any sport with a high degree of athleticism.

[sean_miller]

. . . We don't need to reframe "anyone can be a pro with enough practice" incorrectly as "practice is the only thing that matters" to argue against it.

I could be wrong but you're arguing from a different point of view that of the people the OP is talking about.

There are actually people who believe "skill level" of professional golfers (or any professional athlete) is directly proportional to their practice time and nothing else. We're of course talking about very naive people who are probably not more than a distant aquaintance with anyone considered "elite" in any sport or activity. They are not connected to reality. To say that anyone with enough proper practice could be as good as a tour pro, is a paradox. The statement is inherently untrue but it can not be disproved. It's an argument that can not be "won" or lost. If someone practices like crazy and goes nowhere, it's easy enough to say they didn't practice properly, didn't receive or understand the proper instruction, started too late, etc.

[65withatriple]

I couldn't disagree more with the OP. if you get the PROPER training, not just hitting lots of balls with no real vision, or a vision which you yourself don't know how to attain. if you get a great coach who KNOWS how to teach, and you can be taught, and you practice hours a day. i truly think just about any able bodied individual can get to playing + handicap golf. as far as making it to the tour, that's where the mental game comes in. perfect example, look at david toms vs. camilo. one looks like he can't do much of anything athletically, and the other looks like he could play any sport with a high degree of athleticism.

The part where you said.....and can be taught......kinda proves my point. Because you agree that not everyone can be taught.

I love a good argument.......I really enjoy reading and hearing other opinions even if they are quite different than mine.

[mattttt25]

Not directly related to the discussion, but you guys have hit on it somewhat... there is one inherent part of golf that makes it such a popular game. I can practice every minute of the day and I will never, ever dunk a basketball like Kobe or Lebron. Never. And I can practice some more and never, ever be able to hit a 95 mph fastball out of a ballpark. But I can step on a golf course and hit the same exact 80 yard wedge and put the ball 2 feet from the hole JUST LIKE TIGER. It may take me 1,000 rounds to do it, but chances are it will happen at some point. That's why we always come back, even after a crappy round....

[sacm3bill]

The part where you said.....and can be taught......kinda proves my point. Because you agree that not everyone can be taught.

Exactly. Was going to post that, you beat me to it.

[Bump-n-MI]

Sure there is. work hard, get in shape, practice the right things and you can hit balls as well as sergio or anyone else. It doesnt mean you are the kind of player they might be, but you could certainly have a range war with them..

…..now that you quantified and proved that it can be done I now believe that I can "strike" the ball as good as anybody else in the world (of course with due practice)

…...if only it were that easy

[Doctorfro]

No, you can't say with enough practice that anyone can become a pro. Now there are SOME who can. These guys out on tour, most, I would say, have a gift. And they hone their gift to become better. But sweeping generalizations cannot be made with regard to golf and the amount of practice that one needs to become good. Those of you who practice all the time and aren't getting any better, maybe you're practicing the wrong stuff or you're ingraining improper swings or habits. And transferring what you practice to the course has alot to do with your mindset. That's why we have range pros who can't break 80.

[Fourputt]

I couldn't disagree more with the OP.

I have just one thing to say.... Charles Barkley. Very athletic, coached by Hank Haney who had him practicing like crazy, and he still plays like Lucy Ricardo. You guys with the low single digit handicaps simply can't possibly identify with those of us who don't and never will play to that level. You can argue til you're blue in the face and it wouldn't make the answer any different. Some people do NOT have the physical ability to EVER be able to play even to your level, no matter how hard they try. Just accept that you are wrong.

If all it took was practice, then the overall average golf handicap would not still be hanging around 15. Most players who carry a legitimate handicap are more or less serious about the game, yet only 20% ever get below a 10. Less than 1% get to scratch. Those numbers say a lot. Many of those players are dedicated to learning and practice, yet they will will never play like you say they should. I'd be willing to bet that even you low cappers who argue this point don't strike the ball like a pro. You may think you do, but I doubt that it's true.

[Bump-n-MI]

Let me ask this question. Do the best ball "strikers" in the world have any natural athletic ability?

My point, there is more to the golf swing then just the mental part.

[sean_miller]

. . . the best ball "strikers" in the world . . .

The best in the world do it almost every time. Even I've hit shots that Tiger Woods would have been satisfied with, but all those other shots I hit are a problem.

Of course average golfers can hit the occasional shot like a pro. It's the law of averages - hit enough balls and have a selective enough memory and you're a range pro. What are the odds of one specific raindrop hitting you? What are the odds of getting wet when it rains?

[nike_golf]

I have just one thing to say.... Charles Barkley. Very athletic, coached by Hank Haney who had him practicing like crazy, and he still plays like Lucy Ricardo. You guys with the low single digit handicaps simply can't possibly identify with those of us who don't and never will play to that level. You can argue til you're blue in the face and it wouldn't make the answer any different. Some people do NOT have the physical ability to EVER be able to play even to your level, no matter how hard they try. Just accept that you are wrong.

Well said.

[upah]

Sure there is. work hard, get in shape, practice the right things and you can hit balls as well as sergio or anyone else. It doesnt mean you are the kind of player they might be, but you could certainly have a range war with them..

I'm pretty sure, with enough practice, that any 5'9" person could win the NBA dunk contest like Nate Robinson. Or with enough time in the gym, any Joe Schmo can win the World Strong-Man competition. Face it: athletic prowess in any context is partially genetic. Practice allows you to maximize the potential you have, but won't change who you are.

[iacas]

Heh. Threads like this are a riot.

First we need to define the word "well." What qualities of a PGA Tour player's 5-iron swing are we considering? Speed? Angle of attack? Centered-ness of contact? If I were asked I'd define it as "repeated center contact with an acceptable amount of speed." We can't require 200-yard 5-irons because there are plenty of PGA Tour pros who don't hit their 5-irons 200 yards. We can't force Tiger Woods on people when Corey Pavin is out there (or some of the other shorter hitters). So that out of the way, and "well" defined, I'll move into the thread.

Here is my argument:

None of the three things you stated logically follow "if that were true." You've reached false conclusions. They may be more likely, but they're not cause-effect. Too many other variables come into play.

I could go on.....bottom line is you can't simply pick a skill and decide I'm going to practice until I'm one of the best 150 in the world at it.

I think you can. But "golf" isn't a skill - we're specifically talking about hitting the ball "as well as a PGA Tour player." We're not talking about as far (so long as it's within a range). We're not talking about putting, chipping, the mental game, etc. We're talking about hitting the ball well.

There are a lot of people out there who can do amazing things with a basketball (dribbling, making shots off of buildings, etc.) - BETTER - than an NBA player, but they just don't "play basketball as well." This statement isn't about "playing golf" as well as a PGA Tour player. It's about hitting the ball as well as a PGA Tour player.

Sure there is. work hard, get in shape, practice the right things and you can hit balls as well as sergio or anyone else. It doesnt mean you are the kind of player they might be, but you could certainly have a range war with them..

There you go.

Now obviously I'm not saying that someone who's got four fused vertebrae and a left wrist that can't be straightened fully, or one who lacks musculature, or simply one who's older or too young or something, can do it. This discussion only makes sense within roughly one standard deviation of "average" (including the people who could get to within that range if they work out or something).

Not true. All people are not created equally in an athletic sense. Talents run in different directions and swinging a golf club at a professional level is not something that can be achieved by just anyone, regardless of how much he/she practices. You have a very naive world view if you think that.

And I would suggest that you have a pessimistic view of the world and the human capacity if you think that.

Gee, talk about a bunch of doubters. Who are you to say what's possible and what's not? We can't ever truly create a situation which met all of these conditions: a) student trained properly b) student had an acceptable body type with no unfixable flaws (or flaws that couldn't, like Tim Clark's, be worked around) c) student had the time and capacity d) student had or was fed the proper knowledge Each of those parts hold students back currently, but if the goal was simply to hit the ball as "well" as Corey Pavin or some other PGA Tour players, why couldn't a student get there? Again, we can't create such a situation because, because even if we had 100 people we could find a thousand ways in which a-d weren't done perfectly, and that ruins the experiment. But if we could do a-d perfectly, I believe that we could create individuals who hit the ball better than PGA Tour players. After all, they've had failings or shortcomings in their a-d process, too. What a defeatist attitude it is to say "nope, not possible, you just don't have it in you." Unless there's a physical reason why (and one that can't be fixed or overcome), that's poppycock at worst and simply lacking in belief in the human potential at best. Or maybe that's the worst, since it's quite depressing... :P

At one time I practiced a lot. But I hit a wall and nothing I've done since has made that wall scalable.

But why did you hit the wall? I'm guessing it's likely a mixture of a, c, and d. Maybe due to your age a little bit of b, but maybe not. c might have been a small part, but a and d were likely big parts.

Look, I met a guy who has come close to a, c, and d (while having b already) and who has been playing golf seriously for eight months. Virtually every regular poster on the forum can probably putt better, yet this guy's got a 0.9 index. He hits the ball "as well as" a PGA Tour player right now, and I don't mean down at the Corey Pavin end of the scale either. I like to make the point that this guy was given the right information (d), and that was a big part of it, but really he's come as close to getting in every part of a-d as I've seen. No, one example doesn't "prove" anything, but it does speak to the possibility, and it's evidence in that direction.

I can play a mentally solid game, but when the ball won't go where you aim it, there isn't much you can do about it.

Defeatist attitude. There are things you can do about it, and believing that you can't improve seems to me to be almost the opposite of being "mentally solid."

It's not for lack of lessons

Quality != Quantity.

or for poor fundamentals.

That depends on what your fundamentals are, doesn't it? The "fundamentals" aren't even consistent among PGA Tour players. Heck, the one fundamental they all have is that they hit the ball solidly. But grips? Stances? Etc.? Those are all over the map on even the PGA Tour. Who says you have the right grip and stance and everything else

for you ? Maybe you have those right. Maybe they're wrong.

As a result, I work hardest on my short game, because that is how I keep my game to the best level possible for me.

So, Fourputt, do you believe that if you had parts a-d for putting or chipping or some other "skill" (keeping in mind that "golf" is not a skill - it's a large collection of related skills) related to the short game, that you could putt or chip as "well" as a PGA Tour player?

Cuz I think by now everyone knows where I stand.

[jonnythan]

We will just have to agree to disagree because to me thats all it implies. If "anyone"....which is the key word IMHO..... can practice a certain amount to become the best at something

You don't have to be "the best" to be a pro. There are thousands of pros who are not "the best."

[DavidFehertysBike]

I'm pretty sure, with enough practice, that any 5'9" person could win the NBA dunk contest like Nate Robinson. Or with enough time in the gym, any Joe Schmo can win the World Strong-Man competition. Face it: athletic prowess in any context is partially genetic. Practice allows you to maximize the potential you have, but won't change who you are.

You dont need atheltic abillity to be a superieor ball striker. You might need to be a superior athlete in order to

swing like a tiger woods or dustin johnson, but that doesnt mean you cant be as good of a ballstriker in your own right. They're all in the same place when they strike the ball, and you can learn that. What you do with it determines the type of player you are. Thats what i belive.

[iacas]

I can practice every minute of the day and I will never, ever dunk a basketball like Kobe or Lebron. Never.

Well, that isn't the discussion. Dunking is one skill with a heavy reliance on b. There are plenty of guys in the NBA who can't dunk as well as Lebron or Kobe. So "dunking" isn't the kind of skill that we're talking about here - again, people who can't dunk lack too much of "b," but that doesn't mean they can't play in the NBA.

Do you ever think that, if you put your mind to it and had all of a-d that I mentioned above, you could dribble a basketball as well as an NBA player? That's the topic, or is at least as well as I see it, which is: hit a ball as "well" as a PGA Tour player. The topic isn't "hit the ball as far as Jason Zuback or Jamie Sadlowski."

I have just one thing to say.... Charles Barkley. Very athletic, coached by Hank Haney who had him practicing like crazy, and he still plays like Lucy Ricardo.

Heh. Charles was lacking in d.

You guys with the low single digit handicaps simply can't possibly identify with those of us who don't and never will play to that level.

That's a silly thing to say. We didn't pop out of the womb with a 1.4 index. I could just as easily say that you can't possibly identify with me, but where's that get us? It's just more defeatist banter.

If all it took was practice,

Nobody says that. Practice the wrong things and you're not going to get better. It would take a-d.

Those numbers say a lot.

Agreed. You know what they say to me? They speak to the miserable state of a, c, and d - and d in particular. Look at the several threads I've started recently about how famous, good golfers can't even get basic facts and premises right. Yet they're out there teaching people, and others are taking what they say as some sort of given fact. It's bad information.

Many of those players are dedicated to learning and practice, yet they will will never play like you say they should. I'd be willing to bet that even you low cappers who argue this point don't strike the ball like a pro. You may think you do, but I doubt that it's true.

I don't. I'm working on it, but I don't right now. But I putt better than a lot of 'em. :) And if we add the LPGA Tour in, I putt better than the majority of pro golfers.