More Incorrect Stuff: Draw vs. Fade

[the steam train]

I'll start by saying that I am in complete agreement with the fundemental contention of iacas's original post, logically there should be no difference between the distance a draw and a fade produce. The ball doesn't know which way its spinning, however I find that while this does put certain misconceptions to rest, it also raises further questions. This thread has already recongnized that a draw does go farther in reality, but what I want to know is why. What differences are there in the lauch conditions for a ball hit with a fade and a ball hit with a draw, that result in more than a change in trajectory simply to either the left or right?

Maybe it calls for another thread or maybe it can be answered here, but working from the assumption that spin is inherently neutral, what are the differences between a draw and a fade? I am interested to see what this forum has to say on the subject, as greater understanding of these things has only ever helped my game. The clubface angle and swing path threads caused a significant improvement in my ball control, through what was essentially an academic excercise. So what is the lesson that can be learnt here?

[Gioguy21]

I don't know the physics, not disagreeing or agreeing with any points made. I just know if I have the same swing, changing my target line and alignment (mostly feet); I will hit a high draw further than if i were to hit a fade. just my observations from reality. So, if someone were to ask me, based on my experiences and observations I would have to agree that a draw will go further based on that alone and not physics, teachings, experiments or quantum mechanics lol.

[iacas]

I went to a couple of different physics forums try to find some answers to this question your theory would be correct if both had the same amount of backspin but that wouldn't be possible

That's not right.

Here's an experiment for y'all. Imagine two golf balls. Both golf balls are hit with a clubhead that has, at impact, 25° of loft. Both make contact exactly on the sweet spot. Both clubheads are moving at the same rate of speed and the ball leaves the clubface at the same rate of speed. Both are moving in the same direction vertically (say, -6° angle of attack). Everything is identical except... As viewed from behind the ball, on the target line: - Ball A is hit with a clubhead moving, relative to the target line, from back right to forward left 4°. - Ball B is hit with a clubhead moving, relative to the target line, from back left to forward right 4°. Which ball will go farther? They're going to go the same distance.

In order for a golf ball to fade or slice the ball must be stuck with a clubface that is open to the swingpath. By contrast a draw or hook is struck with a clubface which is closed to the path.

Nobody's debating that, but the

path is not the target line . If we use a frame of reference that doesn't change - the target line - a push-draw has more loft on it than a pull fade. And you're ignoring the simple facts I laid out above: that balls don't know which way they're spinning. People make the golf club less or more lofted. You can hit a push-fade or a push-draw. Both can be hit with a clubface open x degrees to your stance line (we can't use a target line here because one's going to draw from there and one will fade, so it's two different target lines). If the shaft lean is the same, you'll get nearly identical - but opposite oriented - spin axes. Same with a pull-fade or a pull-draw. These tend not to be good shots, but again, the same as I just wrote. And trust me, backspin is both good and bad for distance. What's a "flier"? A ball with LESS spin that goes FARTHER. Too much spin with any club and the ball balloons. Too little spin and it won't carry as far as it should and will hit the ground at a more acute angle. Irons are about distance control ...

Not sure I'd agree with this. If the pull-fade and pull-draw

Why? I don't want to get into diagrams, but look at balls A and B above. Which ball will go farther? They'll go the same distance, and for that matter... you don't know which was hit by a righty or a lefty. Maybe they were both fades or both draws.

Almost all of the top faders are push-faders. To be honest, a pull-fade is a nasty option; every pull-fader I've seen is shorter and tends towards an over-the-top cast. Not to say that a number can't play as we all know it's not how, but how many etc.

I'd agree. Said so above too. Vijay Singh may be one of the few good pull-faders out there, and even then he's

awfully close to being a push-fader. So close that he probably does push-fade 40% of the time without realizing it - his practice routine is all pull-fade, though. The point, again, is that sidespin alone does not contribute to a change in distance. There's more to it than that. Look at the first post - I said it right there:

So, folks, let's put that myth to rest. Golfers hit draws farther than fades because they're doing other things. Their swing speed is probably higher because they're still connected. They probably have more shaft lean. They do

[Randy4h]

Maybe the point of confusion here, at least for me, is that Erik states that a draw and a fade carry the same distance when hit the same. That would be true for balls that leave the club at the same launch angle. However, an 8 iron hit with a closed clubface (draw spin) is no longer an 8 iron, it has a stronger loft. And a faded 8 iron has a weaker loft. Assuming a 2* face angle difference for each swing, the total difference between the two shots is 4* of loft, or one full club. These are approximate angles, I don't know the direct relationship between face angle and loft. But it can't be too far off.

[iacas]

However, an 8 iron hit with a closed clubface (draw spin) is no longer an 8 iron, it has a stronger loft. And a faded 8 iron has a weaker loft.

That's true* if you hit a pull-draw and a push-fade. It's exactly opposite* if you hit a push-draw and a pull-fade.

* Assuming everything else is the same - shaft lean, clubhead speed, contact, etc. etc. etc. Again, Randy, look at Ball A and Ball B above. Those balls are going the same distance.

So, folks, let's put that myth to rest. Golfers hit draws farther than fades because they're doing other things. Their swing speed is probably higher because they're still connected. They probably have more shaft lean. They do

[Fatphil]

My brain hurts.

[shortstop20]

I know this is an old thread but I thought this would be an appropriate place to bring it up.

It seems many think that draws are always hit with more delofted clubfaces than fades

Let's say we're hitting a club with 27 degrees of static loft.

In one scenario, let's say I hit a draw but I flipped at impact and the club had 28 degrees of static loft at impact.

In another scenario, I hit a fade, but with forward shaft lean, resulting in a dynamic loft of 26 degrees.

"Open" and "Closed" are just that, they're not an indication of adding or taking away loft from the clubface at impact.

Am I wrong in my assertion?

[Dave2278]

I think everyone got confused with this concept.  Erik was talking about spin only, not club interaction with the ball.

If a left hits a draw it has the same spin as if a righty hits a fade.

The same is true if a righty hits a draw and a lefty hits a fade.

This was IMO purely hypothetical, as the swing is changed to produce a fade or a draw by one person.  There is no way to accurately test the theory because the swing by nature is different.

[boogielicious]

I love math (really).  The important premise in this tread is "all things being equal" in the swing will produce the same distance.  This is true and the math backs it up.  The difficulty most have, including me, is we can't keep the equality.  If we want to draw, we set up and swing differently than if we want to fade.  So our perception is draw maybe longer due to that set up, as Eric pointed out.

[ghalfaire]

I am sure not an expert on dynamics but am and Engineer and iacas is correct.  If you launch a golf ball so that it has a specific rotational velocity and linear velocity vectors, it doesn't know if it was hit by a right handed or left handed golfer and will travel the exact same trajectory in either case.  QED, a draw does not inherently travel further than a fade for this condition.

I would submit however it is difficult if not impossible for a single golfer to launch a draw and a fade with identical velocities expect for the side spin vector being positive in one case and negative in the other.  So in practice I would think that a draw will have less back spin than the fade because of the launch conditions and will roll farther and be a longer shot start to finish.  What was it Lee Trevino said, "you can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen".

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I love math (really).  The important premise in this tread is "all things being equal" in the swing will produce the same distance.  This is true and the math backs it up.  The difficulty most have, including me, is we can't keep the equality.  If we want to draw, we set up and swing differently than if we want to fade.  So our perception is draw maybe longer due to that set up, as Eric pointed out.

The swing to hit a draw and a fade should be th exact same but the clubhead position at impact is what is changing and that is why the stance has to be opened or closed.  EVERY shot in golf is straight but the clubface orientation at impact can be manipulated but the swing path doesn't. Just like a putt with break in it you start the ball at the apex and the slope of the hill takes the ball toward the hole  when you hit a draw or fade you swing where you want the ball to start and point the clubface where you want it to end up and the spin takes it back toward the center line.

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I am sure not an expert on dynamics but am and Engineer and iacas is correct.  If you launch a golf ball so that it has a specific rotational velocity and linear velocity vectors, it doesn't know if it was hit by a right handed or left handed golfer and will travel the exact same trajectory in either case.  QED, a draw does not inherently travel further than a fade for this condition.

I would submit however it is difficult if not impossible for a single golfer to launch a draw and a fade with identical velocities expect for the side spin vector being positive in one case and negative in the other.  So in practice I would think that a draw will have less back spin than the fade because of the launch conditions and will roll farther and be a longer shot start to finish.  What was it Lee Trevino said, "you can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen".

I think what people don't realize is that this concept is used all the time with anyone who regularly plays draws and fades.  If you close the face of your 48* pitching wedge 3* then it will go the same distance as a 42* 8 iron opened up 3* with the same length shaft because they both equal 45 degrees. Opening and closing the face of a golf club changes it to another club because the loft changes. So basically hitting a draw with a pitching wedge is the same as hitting a straight ball with a 9 iron or playing a fade with an 8 iron. There is a distance difference in hitting a draw, straight ball, or fade with the same club because the effective lofts has changed.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I would submit however it is difficult if not impossible for a single golfer to launch a draw and a fade with identical velocities expect for the side spin vector being positive in one case and negative in the other.  So in practice I would think that a draw will have less back spin than the fade because of the launch conditions and will roll farther and be a longer shot start to finish.

That's one of my points, yes.

Who knows what the average amateur is thinking. When they think of a draw they probably think of a ball they hit reasonably straight (i.e. close to flush, not a lot of energy lost due to path/clubface mismatch) versus their normal pull slice (steep angle of attack, lots of both backspin and sidespin, resulting in a LOT of loss of energy).

But then they fail to ask themselves which goes farther: a slight fade or a duck hook. Because they rarely hit the slight fade and they even less commonly hit the duck hook, and when they do, they immediately wipe it from their memory as "a bad shot."

A lousy big slice - that a lot of amateurs will play for starting the ball well left - will go farther than a duck hook as well, but again, the average amateur considers the first "an acceptable shot" but the latter is scrubbed from memory as "not a good shot". So they don't compare apples to apples.

A push-draw and a push-fade can go the same distance. If the plane is 3 degrees open to the face in one instance and 3 degrees closed in another, dynamic loft is the same, etc. I'm glad we agree they'll go the same distance.

[golfyboy4]

Originally Posted by Fatphil

My brain hurts.

Agreed to much physics lol.

[boogielicious]

Righty to Lefty,

Agreed, but most people don't set up the same way for both because they listen to all the tips they've read or heard..  I've worked on the correct method a lot last year with more success with irons than the driver.

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Righty to Lefty,

Agreed, but most people don't set up the same way for both because they listen to all the tips they've read or heard..  I've worked on the correct method a lot last year with more success with irons than the driver.

Very true and that always makes me flinch when I hear people think that it is a different swing used to work the ball.  I have taught my friends how to hit intentional draws and fades in less than 10 swings because it is just that easy once you trust it.

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

when you hit a draw or fade you swing where you want the ball to start and point the clubface where you want it to end up and the spin takes it back toward the center line.

That feeling may work for you, but that's simply not what is actually happening.

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

That feeling may work for you, but that's simply not what is actually happening.

Simply that is exactly what is happening and that is why I taught my friends so quickly how to shape the ball.  If you preset the clubface open or closed no matter how hard you release the club it is goin to come into impact just as it was preset at address unless you manipulate the club.  That coupled with and open or closed stance is all you need to shape the ball back to the center line.  This is not a feeling because it is fact that every shot in golf is essentially a straight shot and the clubface determines the shot shape.  If you don't believe me then try if for yourself. Next time you are at the range and you wanna hit a nice lil draw just take your stance 10 yards right/left of your target depending on whether you're righty or lefty. Then point the clubface at your target where you want the ball to end up.  Then hit a straight ball, fully releasing the club at your 10 yard offset target and watch it draw right on back to your actual target. Then do the opposite to hit a fade.   Shaping the ball is very easy to do and you don't have to change not one thing with your swing to do it I garauntee it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Righty to Lefty

Simply that is exactly what is happening and that is why I taught my friends so quickly how to shape the ball.

...

Next time you are at the range and you wanna hit a nice lil draw just take your stance 10 yards right/left of your target depending on whether you're righty or lefty. Then point the clubface at your target where you want the ball to end up.

Simply put, no, it's not what's happening at impact. Read up: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws .