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One way NOT to handle pace of play


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Posted
415 for 4 is fine. I don't know what I'd do. I think I would have really started to mess with the people behind. I'd take there ball, hit it somewhere, maybe back at them. If they have a problem I might have a solution. That is rediculous. Even if the group in front is slow, I never intentionally hit into anyone. I'd actually start playing slower and slower to really get under there skin along with hitting and taking there balls. Call me childish (I am a bit) but I love pissing off rude people.

Brian


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Posted
  James_Black said:
why couldn't you have just let them play through?

I don't know if its the case at the course they were playing at, but some places do not allow you to let groups play through, they expect you to keep up and that's it. If you are too slow they sick a martial on your butt. The assistant pro last year at my course used to work at one of the hoity toity courses predominantly used by the rich people from Illinois who cross the border on the weekends, and that was pretty much the rule there. They also wouldn't allow singles, or doubles to play, they were automatically paired with people and no walkers allowed, you were also warned at the turn how behind you were.

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Posted
A foresome finishing a round of golf in 4:15 would be a welcomed site around here.

From your story, if the starter held you guys back, I'm assuming he held everyone back, too. Therefore, you should have never been hit into. That said, how many holes did you find yourself searching for balls or having someone attempt their fourth putt?

How often did you find yourselves arriving to the tee box as the group ahead of you was walking off? If, at some point, that was not the case (meaning the group ahead was already gone) then you did need to pick up the pace.

Still, though, a 4:15 round is above average, at least, here.

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Posted
For those that are saying 4:15 is acceptable, or even quick, need to be reminded that they never had to wait. They had an open tee box and an open green to hit into EVERY HOLE. Yes, I've been in 5 hour plus rounds quite a bit. At least a quarter of that time is spent waiting. If my regular foursomes had an open box and an open green every hole, I know we'd be done around the 3 hour mark, if not sooner.

A 3 hour round equates to 10 minutes per hole. A 4:30 hour round equates to 15 minutes a hole.

15 minutes to play a hole where you had no waiting is too much, no matter how you look at it.

As I said earlier, I think the problem was more w/ the twosome that you got paired with. Without sounding like a dick, how can you tell them to speed up? The answer is that you really can't. You just hope they get the hint that they need to speed up a bit and let it be at that.

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Posted
  James_Black said:
why couldn't you have just let them play through?

How would that have solved anything?

The group after the one they let through will be on them in no time as well. Once things get backed up behind a particular group, letting groups play through serves no real purpose.

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Posted
I haven't read all the replys to this, but if I were to have that happen to me. I'd let the first one go, but the second time I would have walked back to them and politely explained the situation to them. If they didn't take it well and got shitty about it there may have been a fight about to happen. You intentionally hit at me or hit me with a ball you are asking for trouble. A ball is a weapon if you hit at someone on purpose and thats how I would take it. I'm not a bad ass, but I'll be damn if someone going to hit me with a ball on purpose. I'll get hammered on for this statement and I understand that you just don't do those things these days, but thats my thought on it.

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Posted

Did anybody read the OP's entire post?? He said that the group ahead never gained on them. The starter sent them out one hole behind that group, they finished in the same time (4:15) as the group in front of them, which means that they never lost ground. They were playing at the speed of the course. All they could have done was gain that one hole by trying to hurry up for a few minutes, then be waiting for the rest of the round. What's the sense in that? The only logical reason for the starter to hold them back in the first place was to prevent such a scenario. As I see it, they simply complied with what seemed to be his purpose.

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Posted
  Fourputt said:
Did anybody read the OP's entire post?? He said that the group ahead never gained on them. The starter sent them out one hole behind that group, they finished in the same time (4:15) as the group in front of them, which means that they never lost ground. They were playing at the speed of the course. All they could have done was gain that one hole by trying to hurry up for a few minutes, then be waiting for the rest of the round. What's the sense in that? The only logical reason for the starter to hold them back in the first place was to prevent such a scenario. As I see it, they simply complied with what seemed to be his purpose.

I know that was said, but I find it hard to believe.

Remember, your place on the course is directly behind the group in front of you. Yes, they should have been allowed to tee off sooner, but I refuse to believe that you can't make up that time during the round. They couldn't make up the time because they weren't fast enough. Are we to believe that two seperate groups of four people both played their rounds of golf in about the exact same time? I for one have a hard time believing that. Throw in the fact that the OP said he had two shorter hitting women playing w/ them (read - slow), and the fact that they were hit into more than once, gets me to believe the slow group was the OP's.

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Posted
  nike_golf said:
I know that was said, but I find it hard to believe.

I work as a starter. Trust me when I say two groups will quite often finish within a minute or 2 of each other for total time even when they started a half hour apart. Meaning that there is still almost exactly a half hour gap at the finish, even with no other players between them.

The course I work and play most of my golf at has a place of play requirement of 4:20, which is an average of 14.4 minutes per hole. That is an easy number for an average foursome to achieve if they are paying attention to what they are doing. Most groups when not held up by the occasional problem of a slow group will finish in between 4:00 and 4:10. Yesterday my group played in 4:10 (2 walkers and 2 riders in one cart) and we felt like we were waiting a lot, but we are fairly fast players. That is just how the course plays for the typical group of 4 golfers. If we could just eliminate the two or three slow groups each day, all rounds would fall pretty close to that window. While there are a very few groups which play faster than 4 hours, they also usually start early and get out ahead of the traffic. The problem is that once a course gets bogged down, it almost never gets caught up again until the play slacks off in the late afternoon. A couple of bad groups on a busy morning can screw it up for the entire day. I don't feel that the point here is that they couldn't close that gap, but that they didn't see a reason to because the starter deliberately held them back to create that space. In my opinion the ranger was wrong to just jump them for it without verifying with the starter that he did that intentionally. I'd have explained to the ranger that when he approached me, had I been in the group. Like most players I'm never comfortable when there is space ahead which could be closed up. I probably would have made some effort to get my group to hurry a little bit anyway and stay within about a shot and a half of that front group. That way you don't attract the ranger's attention in the first place.

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Posted
  nike_golf said:
If my regular foursomes had an open box and an open green every hole, I know we'd be done around the 3 hour mark, if not sooner..

Ok, I'm going to have to see this to believe it. In my years, I have only once experienced a 4some play a round of golf in 3 hours. A buddy and I were in a 2some, left work early on a summer day. This 4some went off in front of us - 4 elder gents, each with their own cart. They weren't much for practice swings, they just teed it up and let it fly. They took zero time around the greens, they would walk up to their ball, and knock it towards the hole. If it was within 5 feet, they would pick it up and move on. That is not my idea of golf. There was only 2 of us and we just barely stayed behind them the whole day. The 4some behind us was never seen again after the 2nd hole, they easily had to be 5 holes behind us.

For a 4some to have a reasonable pre-shot routine, with 1 practice swing, looking for the occasional ball in the rough/woods, getting accurate yardages, reading putts, holing out on every hole. I'm guessing you and your friends are all single digit handicaps, so I would reason that you do all of this, sometimes mulling over the right club or thinking out a shot. I would say that if all 4 of you can play 3 hour rounds each time out (assuming no traffic), you 4 have officially become my heroes. I have yet, if ever, been in a 4some that could achieve this feat, and I am not a slow player by any means. Playing a 4 hour round on a weekend is a once a year experience for me (where we are not constantly waiting for the group in front of us) Playing a tournament round that lasts less than 4.5 hours is also a rare event. Seriously, you guys have a cure and you need to share it with the world.

Posted
  nike_golf said:
I know that was said, but I find it hard to believe.

I don't find it at all hard to believe. If they're one hole ahead, you can still see them and be sure you don't lose ground. So what's the point in catching up if you're keeping up? Like Fourputt said, just so you can wait around?

The courses I usually play have stated paces, and it's about 4.5 hours for 18 holes, and these are short courses. I don't see that 4.25 hours is slow for a foursome by any stretch. And, regardless, being hit into or near to more than once is completely unacceptable, regardless of the situation. I'd definitely contact management about how this was handled and decide, based on their response (and other factors people have brought up above), whether to return. It sounds like poor (or odd) tee-time management at the start, and at the end either a jerk or a reasonable guy having a bad day. Make sure that those who have the real responsibility to oversee operations are aware that their customers are unhappy and see what happens. As for what to do on the course, the first time a ball lands near me, I would try to make it clear to the group behind that you noticed and that they need to back off. No need to hang back or confront, just signal to them so there's no misunderstanding. Some people have different ideas about how close the ball can land before it's hitting in, or maybe it was an unexpectedly long shot. If it happens again, I'd either contact a ranger or hang back to ask them to stop and if it makes sense to do so, let them through. There's never an excuse to hit a ball back at someone, and stealing/kicking their ball into the woods is just asking to escalate things. Sure, it's not always satisfying to be civilized and humble when someone is a jerk, but in this case I think it's the best approach. Defuse the situation and let everyone get on with their game. And then, if they slow down for any reason, hit into them like it's a Texas hailstorm!!

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Posted
  Fourputt said:
I work as a starter. Trust me when I say two groups will quite often finish within a minute or 2 of each other for total time even when they started a half hour apart. Meaning that there is still almost exactly a half hour gap at the finish, even with no other players between them.

Another point that I wanted to make was that if the OP's group finished at the same time, or within minutes of the first group, then I would say BOTH groups were too slow.

You obviously know more about this than I do, but it doesn't take rocket science to figure out the what, why, and the who in regards to problems on a golf course regarding slow play. You stated that you finished a round in about 4:10 w/ two walkers and two riders. And you did some waiting. I know every course is different, but the OP's group took 4:15 and they didn't wait at all. Again, it doesn't take rocket science to call out the problem here. And that problem is that they were too slow as a group. The shotty thing for the OP is that it most likely wasn't his fault. Most likely, he wasn't the one holding the group up. Yet, he was subjected to having balls being hit into him. That's what I would have a problem with.

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Posted
  Big Perm said:
Ok, I'm going to have to see this to believe it.

We do fairly regularly. In the summer, we get the first tee time (say 6:00ish) and are done somewhere between 2:55 and 3:10 (depends on the course, but we typically play 6600ish yards and 130+ish slope courses). There are alterior motives of getting to work and making meetings/deadlines at play as well. Some might not enjoy it, but everyone in our group loves it. Some things we do:

1. Maybe one practice swing over ball (and it's one of those get loose practice swings, not "go over every swing thought" practice swings). Extra swings are taken to the side until person with honor gets over ball. 2. Drop off or park cart halfway. We get out of the cart, grab multiple clubs and walk. The drop off hits while the other guy is driving to his ball and readying his swing, then walks while his partner's ball is in the air. 3. While it's probably never the case that there are two balls in the air at the same time, it's rare when I could tell you what everyone did on their approach shots -- there's a lot of "Where did X/Y/Z go?" As long as we're not in each other's line, we're going up to the ball and swinging. 4. Almost never mark and pocket the ball on the green unless it is absolutely in a line. Oh, and get ready for some golf blasphemy, but if all we're doing is cleaning and lining up a putt, we don't throw a marker down. You bend over, pick up the ball, wipe it off a bit and put it back down. So, I guess with penalty strokes, my handicap is actually 36.4. 5. First in has the flag ready. Scoring is done at cart on the next tee box. 6. No one looks for a lost ball for more than 2 minutes (and that's probably generous... more like 1 minute). Next time, hit to where you can find it. :) You can pretty much ruin our day to get in front of us. A bunch of Type-A folks here. I'm probably the best out of the regular group, but the others are in the 10.0-15.0 range.

Posted
3 hour round for 4 people making real scores? I can play in 3 hours with one other guy in a cart. Four, no way. My goal isn't to be done as fast as possible. I think sub 4 hour rounds for 4 walking is all you can expect. Things happen.

Tournements...They take forever.

Brian


Posted
  nike_golf said:
Another point that I wanted to make was that if the OP's group finished at the same time, or within minutes of the first group, then I would say BOTH groups were too slow.

You still don't get it. What makes you think that the group in front of them was playing slow?? The consensus in this thread is that 4:15 isn't slow play. And that group may have been right on the heels of the group in front of them, and so on. We were given no information on that so you are just speculating according to your own preferences.

Then too, this isn't a marathon race. You aren't supposed to be trying to beat someone else's time. I see nothing laudable about racing around the course. I doubt that you play by the rules, hole all putts, etc., and still play in 3 hours. I can't even imagine why anyone would want to play that fast.. You should only be required to maintain the established pace for the course, and most courses set that allowable pace at 4:15 to 4:30. Ideally you keep up with the group in front. If that isn't possible because of a large time difference in starting, then at worst you don't want to be the cause of a log jam. Time yourself. If you are averaging less than 15 minutes per hole then you shouldn't have to worry. It doesn't sound to me like the OP did anything wrong except for not at least mentioning to the ladies they were playing with that they should try to close the gap a little.

Rick

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Posted
The OP himself said that this 4:15 round he played was an hour over his average. So, and he even said, he knew his group was a bit on the slow side.

So, for all the folks saying 4:15 is fine, keep that in mind.

Another thing that is assumed is that it takes real good golfers to play quickly. That's not true. I play in a foursome w/ my two brothers and dad whenever I get a chance. While one of my brothers is about on my level, my dad and other brother, not as good, but still respectable golfers.

We're pretty quick. Although I've never been on an open course w/ that group, I would say IF we did have an open course, it wouldn't get over 3:30.

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Posted
4:15 isn't bad at all. I'm not sure where some of you are playing but I could never see a round under 3:45 unless I'm in the first group out. It's funny because you see so many threads on here about people complaining about slow groups and "call the ranger to speed up play" is the overall answer. I agree with calling the ranger and if the group behind you was that upset they could have called the ranger. Now being hit into multiple times.

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Posted
I think the people hitting balls into the green when you were playing is out of order and you should have picked their ball up and put it in your bag and say u never seen it

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