O'Meara's Swing v. Tiger's

[Carland]

Did Tiger ever fully accept what Haney taught? Look at Tiger's swing v. Mark O'Meara's. O'Meara keeps his club parallel to or on the original club shaft plane at address, which is what Haney teaches. O'Meara's wrists set pretty early and he's relatively flat at the top, but not as flat as a Jim Hardy one-plane swinger. O'Meara does not take the club way to the outside and then re-route it flat like people were criticizing Tiger for doing.

I wonder if Tiger ever fully followed Haney's advice. Tiger doesn't start his wrist set early like Haney suggests. I've read two of Haney's books. He never says to take the club to the outside going back and re-route it flat at the top. Instead, Haney says that your hands come to the inside on the takeaway at the same time you hinge your wrists up. In and up in equal measures. It doesn't look like Tiger ever did that.

[Carland]

Sorry to bring this back up but, when I look at O'Meara's swing, I don't see the loop that Tiger's swing gets criticized for. Why does Tiger have the loop to the outside going back under Haney when O'Meara didn't? Here are videos of both of them down the line. Tiger's video is from this year's Masters. It doesn't actually look like much of a loop going back, but he definitely dips down on the downswing.

O'Meara


Tiger

[jamo]

You might be on to something. O'Meara actually gets his hands decently deep. Tiger doesn't, but I still don't think that in that specific video Tiger's hands are the biggest problem. Watch his lower body, the footwork is horrble, and he is clearly trying to kill ball. The thing is, 10 years ago Tiger's swing didn't change much when he tried to kill the ball.

[Carland]

You might be on to something. O'Meara actually gets his hands decently deep. Tiger doesn't, but I still don't think that in that specific video Tiger's hands are the biggest problem. Watch his lower body, the footwork is horrble, and he is clearly trying to kill ball. The thing is, 10 years ago Tiger's swing didn't change much when he tried to kill the ball.

I see what you're saying about Tiger's footwork because his backswing looks on plane. Put a pen on the backswing at address. Both Tiger and O'Meara make the clubhead go up the shaft plane on the takeaway and halfway back the clubhead covers their hands like it's supposed to. Assume that's true then look at both downswings. Why does Tiger dip and O'Meara does not on the downswing?

[Fatphil]

Since you bring it up....WTF is the difference btw the "Haney" & "Harmon" swings?

[senorchipotle]

i think tiger just needs to change his grip. with haney's stupid grip you have less range of motion in your wrists and start flipping and blocking and pulling shots.

[colin007]

tigers hands/arms are clearly moving almost straight back in the first video before looping back and then dropping down. not much of a loop at all for omeara.

[Carland]

Since you bring it up....WTF is the difference btw the "Haney" & "Harmon" swings?

I am only guessing, but Harmon seems more concerned with "keeping the club in front of you" and Haney is more about "staying on or parallel to the club shaft angle at address." Here is a video of Tiger from 2000. He's is definitely more upright at the top of the backswing than he is today:

[tim31x]

i am currently working with an instructor who worked directly for haney for a few years. he preaches haney's swing. it's great if you want to play a push draw, and its great for irons. the number 1 problem with haney's swing with a driver is that your hands can easily get stuck and jammed on the down swing. with a long club like a driver, its just far too much club to compensate for not like you can with a shorter club(iron, etc). you might notice tigers driving accuracy numbers have dwindled since switching to haney. glad he took a break from him for the time being.

[nlowplacez]

in my opinion, tiger's hip turn doesn't work as well with a flatter swing haney incorporated. a hip turn as fast and powerful as his has the effect of getting your club BACK on plane. if you're already on plane all its gonna do is get u stuck and block. he should go back to the steeper backswing or quiet those hips on the down, but i think he would lose some distance. just my thoughts, worthless as they may be

[Carland]

in my opinion, tiger's hip turn doesn't work as well with a flatter swing haney incorporated. a hip turn as fast and powerful as his has the effect of getting your club BACK on plane. if you're already on plane all its gonna do is get u stuck and block.

If your club is on plane going back and on plane at the top, why would the speed of the hip turn change the plane of the golf club on the downswing? If you're on plane going back, shouldn't it be easier to stay on plane coming through no matter what the speed of your hip turn?

Here's why I ask. The guys with the steep backswings like Fred Couples, Colin Montgomery, even Jim Furyk seem to swing more fluidly than someone with a flat backswing like Ben Hogan who looked like he moved his hips pretty quickly in the downswing. So I figured that a guy with a steep backswing needed more time in the transition to get back on plane coming down whereas a guy with a flatter backswing who is already on plane can be quicker in the downswing because he doesn't need to make any adjustments to get the club back on plane. I'm just a 7-handicap so I'm no expert. I'm just asking because I'd like to understand the concept better. Here are videos of Couples and Hogan:

[WUTiger]

When you're adopting a swing system, you work it by the book for awhile, and then adjust it to your individual game. Your muscle build, length of arms and legs, etc., lend a lot of individual differences to making a golf swing. The little adjustments help take into account the individual differences.

[nlowplacez]

If your club is on plane going back and on plane at the top, why would the speed of the hip turn change the plane of the golf club on the downswing? If you're on plane going back, shouldn't it be easier to stay on plane coming through no matter what the speed of your hip turn?

its tough to explain but i'll try. and like i said its my opinion, so others will probably dispute it. tiger's problem was getting stuck. now its everything so ill go back to when he was a little more consistent and his miss was gettin stuck and leaving the ball out to the right. basically his hips turned fast and powerful and left his arms and club behind and the only way for him to not block the ball was to use his hands. back when he was swinging good like in 2000 (this will sound crazy btw) he was still getting stuck but in a different way. the top of his backswing was steeper and obviously off the correct swing plane. the hip turn would get his arms and clubs stuck, but it was a good thing since he went from being too high on the plane to right on it. if he had moved the hips and arms simultaneously or closer too it as a lot of one planers do (ex immelman) he would come over the top and swing like a weekend hacker or craig stadler. i could write about 40 pages on this but i'll leave it at that and answer any ques if you have em. or you may think im a nut, but like i said its my OPINION

[nlowplacez]

oh and carland you were right. steeper swings do need more time. thats why they can delay the arm and upper body swing a little. flatter swings do better to start the hips and upper body closer together. tigers new swing was giving his upper body time that it didnt need or want

[jamo]

its tough to explain but i'll try. and like i said its my opinion, so others will probably dispute it. tiger's problem was getting stuck. now its everything so ill go back to when he was a little more consistent and his miss was gettin stuck and leaving the ball out to the right. basically his hips turned fast and powerful and left his arms and club behind and the only way for him to not block the ball was to use his hands. back when he was swinging good like in 2000 (this will sound crazy btw) he was still getting stuck but in a different way. the top of his backswing was steeper and obviously off the correct swing plane. the hip turn would get his arms and clubs stuck, but it was a good thing since he went from being too high on the plane to right on it. if he had moved the hips and arms simultaneously or closer too it as a lot of one planers do (ex immelman) he would come over the top and swing like a weekend hacker or craig stadler. i could write about 40 pages on this but i'll leave it at that and answer any ques if you have em. or you may think im a nut, but like i said its my OPINION

I guess what you are saying makes sense.... but how do the hips come into play?

[nlowplacez]

what do you mean how do they come into play jamo. the hips are the driving force of any good golf swing, its just a matter of timing their movement.

[jamo]

what do you mean how do they come into play jamo. the hips are the driving force of any good golf swing, its just a matter of timing their movement.

But what is the hip difference between hips in an upright and a flat swing. I could be wrong, but it seemed like you were saying that there was a difference.

[nlowplacez]

But what is the hip difference between hips in an upright and a flat swing. I could be wrong, but it seemed like you were saying that there was a difference.

ya i didn't really mention it, but i teach different hip turn methods depending on players swing. most one planers i work with i try to get them to move away from too much lateral movement to the left or bump as some call it. lateral movement is necessary but it can be easily overdone. one two planers more like tigers old swing i like aggresive weight shit which usually means more of a hard lateral move or bump. like hogan (one planer) said, swivel the hips like your turning in a barrel.