Traditional Swing teaching is over-rated

[Cornbread]

Lets look at some of the game biggest names and see if they have the swing that many INSTRUCTORS try and teach;
Lee Trevino...NO, Arnold Palmer...NO, Raymond Floyd...NO, Jim Furyk...NO, Fuzzy Zeller...NO, Kenny Perry...NO, the list goes on an on.
All a person has to do to play great golf is have the ability during the swing to return the clubhead to the address position as it passes that point. That ability along with being able to understand the effects of differing angles and the ability to correct ones own errors ...are basically all you need to know.
Oh, and the ability to chip and putt.
The swing itself is way over-taught and over-rated.

[iacas]

Lets look at some of the game biggest names and see if they have the swing that many INSTRUCTORS try and teach;

To be fair, a lot of those people were around before "the instructor" became commonplace.

And: a) Arnold Palmer learned from his dad. b) Jim Furyk learned from his dad and still works with him on his swing. c) Kenny Perry works with Matt Killen, a swing instructor. d) Jack Nicklaus worked with Jack Grout from the time he was a kid. Back before the early 1980s, too, easy access to video tape and things that made teaching easier weren't popular or easy to come by.

All a person has to do to play great golf is have the ability during the swing to return the clubhead to the address position as it passes that point.

That person would be a terrible golfer. Impact is nothing like setup. Every part of your body is in a different position at impact versus setup.

That ability along with being able to understand the effects of differing angles and the ability to correct ones own errors ...are basically all you need to know.

Clearly not everyone has the natural ability you believe they do or we wouldn't have golfers struggling to break 100, 90, or even 80.

There's something to be said for digging it out of the dirt, but I hit a wall at roughly a 2.0 index golfer. I got better - immediately - when I sought proper instruction, and I see students every day get better and better. Guy today started the season as a 9.3 and is now a 4.2 (on his way to 3.8 once two more old scores come off the card). The golf swing isn't a natural motion. If it were, there'd be no need for teachers - just driving ranges. Your handicap is listed as a 6.0 and you seem to think impact is the same as setup - I think with proper instruction you too could benefit, learn new things, and improve. I may point out that some instructors give what I consider bad advice or that they violate some basic geometry from time to time, but I never bash an instructor for being an instructor. Their goals are the same as mine - to make students better. With technology and the knowledge we have today, you're more a fool NOT to take instruction from a good instructor. A great golf swing, again, is NOT natural. A slice, seemingly, is.

[saevel25]

Not to mention alot of golfers had other golfers to emulate. Idols that they can mimic there swings off of, but majority is just going out on the driving range and figuring it out.

But that was in a time were things were taken at stride, now everything if fast paced and we can get information instantly.

[Gibby]

I actually tend to agree that professional instruction is overrated. Not to say that professional instruction is bad, I have no doubt it can be very helpful, i just don't think it's necesary, maybe moreso for some than for others. Of course, the instructors out there are going to tell people that without professional instruction they won't reach their potential or what not. A few minutes ago some guy on TV told me i needed a shamWOW as well - jus sayin'

I think self teaching yourself is a very effective way to learn, mainly because you will actually learn and understand things better, instead of repeating certain motions because someone tells you to. I've never taken formal lessons in my life, and feel like as a 17 year old, my game has progressed nicely over the last few years. Whether or not I would be better had I the money to take lessons everyday at the local CC i'll never know...and I don't care.

Last summer, I went to a golf camp for my high school, and as part of the camp, there was an pro at the driving range to help us. Many of the things he said were ridiculous. His swing was all about swaying, and he also told us about how all of the power in the swing came from the unhinging of wrists...I even remember him telling us how Tiger Woods' swing was one of the worst on tour, and only his extreme athleticism helped him hit the ball well. I feel most instructors out there are like this - they claim that there is one way to swing the club correctly, and everything else is wrong. Now, much of my swing is based off of stack and tilt, ideas i've been implementing into my swing long before i ever discovered this forum that at times seems to be a S&T; Church of some sorts =P (even though I realize i'm arguing against a S&T; instructor)


I just believe that grooving the "perfect" swing is all about taking what you have and what your swing is like naturally, and then working with what you have. You can grip it interlocking or overlapping, work with a fade or a draw as your natural shot, have a flying elbow or not, the list is endless. Look at all the tour pros that have "abnormalties" in their swing. For every swing on tour that is like Ishikawa or McIlroy, there is a Furyk, Dustin Johnson, or Lee Westwood swing. I think teaching pros should tailor their instruction for each specific swing, and try to change as little as they can.

Just my two cents.

[nuck81]

Since I live about Thirty minutes from where Kenny Perry grew up and my current Teacher played against him all through Jr, High School and College Golf I can tell you that Kenny was taking lessons his whole life. And it wasn't until the last ten years or so that his career has really taken off...

Gibby, the problem is that a majority of the guys that go to the range and try to learn the game on their own, or their friends get them started with tips rarely stick with the game and achieve even an average level of ability. There are exceptions, but most are, and remain terrible golfers. It's been since late March that I've had my very first lesson starting basically from scratch and in that time, I broke 100 my first time playing 18 after a lesson and shot 92 my last time I will break 90 the next time I play 18, I just know it. Now to my credit I am a dedicated and diligent practicer (almost two-three hours a day) but I wouldn't have even dreamed of these goals without the help and guidance from my pro...

[sean_miller]

Lets look at some of the game biggest names and see if they have the swing that many INSTRUCTORS try and teach;

You must be older than me to even know who Raymond Floyd and Fuzzy Zoeller are. Which one of them won a US Open because Greg Norman choked on 18? Floyd had a great short game and won a lot of tournaments, but all I remember Fuzzy for is a fried chicken comment and hitting some lady in the head on a par 3.

Trevino? How about Chi Chi Rodriguez or Ian Woosnam - they're all little guys who had to swing hard. Really hard. I think a lot of instructors do use the swings of Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Byron Nelson, Tom Watson, Tom Weiskopf, Johnny Miller, Jack Nicklaus, Davis Love III, and a young Sandy Lyle (seriously) etcetera as examples because they're timeless. Mimic the motion of Sam Snead and try to be a bad golfer - it's not gonna happen.

[Cornbread]

all I remember Fuzzy for is a fried chicken comment and hitting some lady in the head on a par 3.

Your right, Fuzzy only won that US Open

and The Masters , what does he know. There is far more to the game of golf than having a picture perfect Driver or Long Iron swing. 50% of the game happens between the ears. Do some people need professional golf instruction? Sure, but its primarily the ones who aren't intelligent enough to solve their own problems. Some people are more mentally gifted than others.

[iacas]

I think self teaching yourself is a very effective way to learn, mainly because you will actually learn and understand things better, instead of repeating certain motions because someone tells you to.

You're a 6.6. You're 17. And You've never taken instruction. So I ask this question honestly and with no ill will: why do you think you're qualified to comment on something you've never experienced?

I can tell you from experience - I got down to a 2.0-ish index "all on my own" that I did NOT understand things "better." You hear the phrase "feel isn't real" quite often in the golf world and it's as true as anything out there. You can think you're doing something when you're not and vice versa. Furthermore, as an instructor, a BIG part - perhaps even the biggest part - of my role is to explain things so that the student DOES understand them. I didn't get that myself trying to learn things on my own. Learning the golf swing on your own is like trying to learn Chinese by trying to read a whole bunch of Chinese books in which every 173rd word is translated for you.

I just believe that grooving the "perfect" swing is all about taking what you have and what your swing is like naturally, and then working with what you have.

Feel isn't real and the golf swing isn't a natural motion. It takes a lot of learning to do it right, and again, that learning can be accelerated to a large degree with proper instruction.

50% of the game happens between the ears.

Bah, horsepucky.

If that were the case mentally strong people would never have trouble breaking 100.

Do some people need professional golf instruction? Sure, but its primarily the ones who aren't intelligent enough to solve their own problems.

Wow. Not even gonna touch that one except to say you couldn't be further from the truth.

----- Look, it pisses me off that there are horrible instructors out there like the one Gibby ran into at his clinic. I have personally observed people giving lessons and wanted to jump in and scream "don't listen to this guy - he's nuts!!!" Just today a guy was being told "release the club more" as he continued to slice the bejeezus out of the ball. Meanwhile, his hands never got behind his ears in the swing and all he did was spin from the top with his weight back. Release the club more? Sure - the few times he managed to do it he hit the ball knee-high, 70 yards with his driver, and 40 degrees left of his target... There are a lot of bad instructors out there. Probably not the majority, but a lot - and they make it difficult for the instructors who know their stuff. If a student spends $400 for four lessons with one instructor who's bad, what are the odds that guy will take lessons from anyone else in the future? Slim, right? I learned the swing myself for a long time. I posted here a few years ago saying how much I enjoyed being completely responsible for my own swing. You know what's a helluva lot more fun than having been the sole creator of my own swing? Breaking par. Knowing how to fix something on the golf course. Understanding why the things I tend to do cause the problems I tend to see. Knowing exactly what to work on and how I can spot recurring problems when they pop up. Hitting the ball 20 yards farther. High, towering push draws that carry forever. To anyone who's had bad instruction, I'm sorry. You may be lost forever to instructors, and that stinks for both you and the good instructors out there. To anyone who hasn't yet had instruction, take your time, do some research, and find a guy you like. It's worth it, I can't promise you enough.

[anthony]

Cornbread, I think the fact of the matter is instructors are teaching the wrong things instead of "traditional swing teaching is overrated". Or maybe better yet, they are focusing their teaching on the wrong things in the wrong order. Weight on the front foot and hands in front of the ball at impact should be tops while "move your shoulder, adjust your grip, release the club, etc" should not be the first things a student is learning.

[Cornbread]

With the new Digital age and todays modern world, personal Golf Instruction is less important and less needed. If a person wishes to get better at the Game of Golf, they can spend several hundred bucks and by themselves a Video Camera and Tripod, or some other video software. For that matter, even Instructional DVD's. Then they at least have something tangable for their money.
Do Touring Pros have teachers? Sure, becasue its their living and income to score better thus win more money in tourneys. Explain to me why Joe Average who doesn't play in paying tournaments would wish to spend 200 or $300 per month on Golf Lessons? Other than personal satisfaction there is nothing to gain.
Different people need differing levels of assistance. Non-athletes generally need more help with Golf than pure athletes. This is why so many professional quarterbacks or baseball players can take up Golf and immdeiately break 90, or even 80. Abilites can be mental, or they can be physical..... find some over-weight and out of shape adult whos never played organized sports, and who's totally non-athletic and they will never break 90 even with instruction. They simply don't have the physical ability. And yes Golf is mental and between the ears. Why do so many Touring Pros who need it take nerve calming drugs?
I'm 51 and also with a 6 handicap and I have never taken a Golf lesson in my life. I'm not saying personal golf instruction is useless, I just saying that it is not always a necessity. Yea, give me a great golf teacher to walk the course with me daily or weekly and I could be a 3 handicap, however I realize that's my scoring limit based on my physical abilities.

[iacas]

Explain to me why Joe Average who doesn't play in paying tournaments would wish to spend 200 or $300 per month on Golf Lessons? Other than personal satisfaction there is nothing to gain.

Huh? Because it's enjoyable to play well. Because it's fun to beat your buddies. Because improvement is addictive. Because you want to win your flight in the club championship.

Other than personal satisfaction? Well hell, why play golf at all? You need to change your name to Debbie Downer. Or just give it up and realize that not everyone shares your point of view and stop pushing it so hard. You want to learn on your own - I have no problem with that. I did it for awhile myself. But your approach doesn't apply to everyone. P.S. I don't buy into the physical limitations bit as much as you do. I think you're making excuses for yourself. You're 51? How old is Tom Watson...? Everyone is physically capable of more than they realize. We had an 80-year-old guy hitting 195-yard 5-woods the other day. Literally 80. Yes, he was in decent shape for an 80-year-old guy, but again, EIGHTY.

[saevel25]

Because this game is something you can't master it can only be played.
Its the best game ever created

[RC]

I sort of consider hitting a golf ball and the method one employs to be much like macroeconomics -- there are lots of theories and believers in one approach or another, there are many different words used which don't mean the same things in the various approaches, and there are specific situations which make one method preferable to another.

Now comes the role of a the teacher. There is not one magic method for all, and a teacher who attempts to force all his or her students into some very tightly measured perfect mold of the golf swing will not be a very good teacher. However, that does not mean that various approaches to the golf swing as taught by various teachers are not great methods within a narrow range of acceptable variations to allow for the physical differences of students. Fundamentals are still fundamentals and a great teacher can do a marvelous job of helping a golfer reach a better level of play within an appropriate range of acceptable variations. There is always the issue of matching the teacher to the student because not everyone learns the same way, and not every student can or will do what a particular teacher may ask of them.

I guess what I am trying to say is there are several ways up the mountain, but a guide with skill at teaching a good method is a valuable asset that will make your journey much easier and enjoyable, and best of all, a good teacher will educate you as to why you are doing what you are trying to do. A good teacher should enable a golfer to recognize and fix those daily little errors that show up undexpectedly. A good teacher gives you the road map to find your way back to solid swings.

Yes, there are self taught swingers who are very good. But the odds favor good methods and good teachers.

[sean_miller]

Yes, there are self taught swingers who are very good.

It's not too common. Even the "self-taught" guys had either a mentor or copied an existing swing (whether it was like the way Vijay emulated pull-out swing sequences of Tom Weiskopf). Examples of guys truly learning the swing on their own (like learning to hit every shot with a 3-iron down on the beach) are by far the exception.

I contend that every "self-taught" person is sort of full of it, unless they've honestly never seen another person swing a club and copied their movements.

[RC]

Sean,
What I should have said is the self taught players who are good most likely saw a good swing, or tried to emulate a model, and they pursued that quest without the aid of a second set of eyes and comments. I agree that that is a risky path and not optimal at all. There are athletes who can watch a good athletic move and come very close to duplicating it. That is a skill of a small set of people who tend to claim they are self-taught. In reality, they are very attuned to observation and replication. I learned tennis by watching great tennis players and practicing with pros. It was not until much later in life that I actually took a formal lesson. Golf was much better because I started out with lessons, and returned to them frequently. In tennis, I simply could physically move better, set up more quickly, react instinctively, and up the level of effort and sort of force a higher level of play... that does not work well in golf -- and it only worked in tennis because I spend thousands of hours practicing with great players whom I could observe closely. They told me they like to practice with me because I hit it hard and had top spin on both sides. I never found golf a sport where trying harder seemed to help. It was almost the opposite. Sports are different for different people and in many ways golf and your own eyes (and feel) seem to result in many bad swings, for the most part.

[Cornbread]

Other than personal satisfaction? Well hell, why play golf at all?

If I change my name then folks can call me Double D's right.

Why play golf you ask? Not everone plays golf to be competitive... many play for the exercise or to be outdoors in nature. To each his own. Also eveyone is entitled to theire opinion, including both you & I, and no particular opinion is right or better than the other. Tom Watson is 60, and yes he can still play very well... however he has always played well, even when very young, thus my poiint... different people have differing levels of natural ability. Some baseball players are home run hitters, some are good a fielding, and some at pitching. None have the exact level of natural ability, and you can't INSTRUCT or give lessons that will make John Smoltz to hit a baseball like Barry Bonds.

[Harmonious]

None have the exact level of natural ability, and you can't INSTRUCT or give lessons that will make John Smoltz to hit a baseball like Barry Bonds.

Only BALCO can make Smoltz hit like Barry Bonds. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

[Cornbread]

Only BALCO can make Smoltz hit like Barry Bonds. (Sorry, couldn't resist).

yea.. but we don't have Drugs in the PGA. At least not in the past 1-1/2 years. (You know, about the same time that Eldrick stopped winning or even playing very often).