HDCP Question

[sean_miller]

On our system (RCGA) you can if you want enter a hole by hole score and teh it will adjust ESC for you . It will also keep stats for you on how you do on PAR 3,4 & 5. Of course it way more work to enter 18 holes rather then just subtract a stroke or two for ESC and enter one score.

The RCGA really dumbed it down for Canadians, eh? Are they monitoring our on-course beer consumption?

[DavidFehertysBike]

Yeah, thats true. Depending on handicap, the most you can enter for your score in GHIN is a double. Equitable stroke control. If im not playing in a tournament, i wont even put a number higher than a double on the card. It just makes it a little more simple to add up my postable score at the end of the round. I had a spell where i would forget to subtract the strokes from my stinker holes, and i just posted the score without the ESC.

[Chief Broom]

It's also noteworthy to point out that your maximum score under ESC is dependent upon your course handicap for that particular course and tees you are playing. The highest score I take is a seven regardless of par. That's because my course handicap is usually between 10-19. When your course handicap drops below 10 that's when the highest score you can take per hole drops to double bogey.

[mattttt25]

Thanks to everyone who posted. I really need to read up and understand all of this better. Maybe I need to just start carrying an official handicap to better understand it.

I truly understand what a handicap is meant to show. I understand how it factors in course difficulty with slope and rating. And I also understand that it reflects your potential, not average score.

What I am still missing is this equitable stroke thing and how we define potential. Maybe I'm looking at extremes, but what about the guy that shoots 14 pars every time he plays, but also hits double par on those other 4 holes. Every time. It sounds like his hdcp would be low because he'd adjust those 4 holes every time. But in reality, he would never break 85.

[James_Black]

What I am still missing is this equitable stroke thing and how we define potential. Maybe I'm looking at extremes, but what about the guy that shoots 14 pars every time he plays, but also hits double par on those other 4 holes. Every time. It sounds like his hdcp would be low because he'd adjust those 4 holes every time. But in reality, he would never break 85.

that's what net score competitions are there for.

[shades9323]

Thanks to everyone who posted. I really need to read up and understand all of this better. Maybe I need to just start carrying an official handicap to better understand it.

That player doesn't exist.

[James_Black]

That player doesn't exist.

you sure?

I know a guy who hits the ball miles.(plays off 6) He went, double bogey, birdie, bogey, eagle (drove the green) for the last 4 holes. level par but in a very strange way. I'd say he's had one of those days.

[acegolfer]

I guess by now (I haven't read all the posts) everyone knows what ESC is. But have you discussed why ESC is needed?

I think it's to avoid sandbaggers from artificially inflating the HDCP. Is this correct?

Believe it or now, some players out there don't want to maintain a low HDCP for competition.

[shades9323]

you sure?

Yes, I don't see any double pars on your buddies score. Or any holes needing ESC for that matter.

[Fourputt]

What I am still missing is this equitable stroke thing and how we define potential. Maybe I'm looking at extremes, but what about the guy that shoots 14 pars every time he plays, but also hits double par on those other 4 holes. Every time. It sounds like his hdcp would be low because he'd adjust those 4 holes every time. But in reality, he would never break 85.

When you see that sort of score, it's an aberration. Anyone who can shoot 14 pars in a round is not going to have 4 blowup holes except on a a very rare and unusual occasion. He is just too good (and too smart) a player to do that. The handicap system can't be made to work for a player such as you describe (if such a player actually existed, which I doubt). It has to be designed to work for the typical player at any handicap level, not for the rare exception. Like any system which is essentially base on statistics, the system is designed around a norm, and the farther you deviate from that norm, the less likely the system is to work for you.

That's also why the system limits a handicap to a max of 36 (or 40 for the ladies). The higher the handicap the more erratic the player, and bigger are the swings in his score. The USGA system doesn't work as well when the scoring swings get too large. Such a player can shoot 110 one day and 90 the next... it's got to be hell playing in the bottom flight in a tournament. Shoot your handicap both days and lose to this guy. Yet both can be totally honest handicaps and scores. Rather than trying to make the system work for the exception, that exceptionally erratic player needs to work on his game until it fits better in the system.

[allin]

Handicapping is not well understood by most people, including me, but there are some things to consider. It's not about scores, it's about performance. If I go out and score 17 pars and a 22 on a par 5, does that mean my abilities are that of a double digit handicap? No way. My average (median, not mean) performance on each hole was much closer to even par.

Well actually there is a slight edge to the lower handicap built in. In addition the more consistent player will also have a slight advantage in stroke play. In match play It might not work out the same, higher handicaps tend to have blow up holes which doesn't hurt them as much in match play.

[acegolfer]

Well actually there is a slight edge to the lower handicap built in. In addition the more consistent player will also have a slight advantage in stroke play. In match play It might not work out the same, higher handicaps tend to have blow up holes which doesn't hurt them as much in match play.

100% agree.

[sean_miller]

Well actually there is a slight edge to the lower handicap built in. In addition the more consistent player will also have a slight advantage in stroke play. In match play It might not work out the same, higher handicaps tend to have blow up holes which doesn't hurt them as much in match play.

Maybe one-on-one there's some merit to that, but as you said, low cappers are more consistent, so as a group, there won't be as many rounds that would be considered outliers. Factor in the sheer number of erratic high handicap players in a net tournament and a couple of them always seem to find a way to shoot their career best that day. Very rarely does a 0-5 index player take home the big prize in a net event.

[zeg]

I think it's to avoid sandbaggers from artificially inflating the HDCP. Is this correct?

I don't think so, after all, a sandbagger is already cheating, so an additional rule isn't going to stop him. He'll just add strokes evenly on all the holes to boost his score without triggering ESC. As has been said, ESC is to prevent an abnormally bad hole in an otherwise good round from having too much impact on one's handicap.

After all, the purpose of the handicap is to represent potential, which has been said many times in this thread. I'm someone who's actually pretty close to that hypothetical golfer who's shooting 14 pars and 4 blow-ups per round. It's not quite so extreme, but it's not uncommon for me to have 7 holes that average bogey, with a pair of 8s or worse for the last two holes in a 9-hole round. A couple weeks ago I had 5 pars, 7 bogeys, 2 doubles, and... 4 8s. It's frustrating; my handicap index is high enough that I get to keep up to 9 strokes per hole on any course I have business playing, but my patterns mean I clearly have the potential to play quite a bit better than I do. Gotta work on consistency.

Well actually there is a slight edge to the lower handicap built in. In addition the more consistent player will also have a slight advantage in stroke play. In match play It might not work out the same, higher handicaps tend to have blow up holes which doesn't hurt them as much in match play.

There is the "bonus for excellence" (i.e., taking 96% of the mean of your best 10 differentials instead of the full 100%), but for stroke play this doesn't really level the playing field fully. If you look up the table of exceptional score probabilities, high handicappers are more likely to shoot low score relative to their handicap than low handicappers. On average, between two players, most of the time the net scores will be pretty close since neither player is likely to go more than a couple strokes below his handicap with any regularity. When you have larger numbers of players, like in a tournament, the odds pretty heavily favor someone in the field going very low, and here the high handicappers get a pretty significant edge. That's why net score tournaments are usually flighted.

Also, I'd argue that for net score, consistency probably hurts more than helps. If you shoot more or less the same score every time, you'll basically play to the same score relative to handicap again and again (usually coming up a couple strokes over it). If your scores are all over, you'll have more rounds that are below handicap to offset those that are above, so I suspect this will nudge your average score below the consistent guy, giving you the edge head-to-head, round-to-round. In fact, this is probably why high-cappers are more likely to occasionally go very low---they'll have the terrible day that offsets that low differential and keeps the index up.

[bplewis24]

I guess by now (I haven't read all the posts) everyone knows what ESC is. But have you discussed why ESC is needed?

I read that the primary reason it was instituted was to prevent "blow-up" holes from skewing your handicap index. Since the handicap is meant to show what your potential is (and not your average score), removing a blow-up hole from the scorecard (by only allowing you to take a double-bogey, let's say), it gives a truer reflection of how you played that day. Or, that is the thinking behind it, anyway.

Now, this also prevents a sand-bagger from playing well, and then intentionally inflating his/her score by putting up some snowmen on a few holes per round. However, the primary objective is still the driving force behind this byproduct: disallowing a blow-up hole to negatively impact your potential index. Brandon

[Fourputt]

Well actually there is a slight edge to the lower handicap built in. In addition the more consistent player will also have a slight advantage in stroke play. In match play It might not work out the same, higher handicaps tend to have blow up holes which doesn't hurt them as much in match play.

Although actually the USGA system is designed to work best in match play. If the players carry honest handicaps (neither vanity nor sandbagging) and if the holes are properly ranked for handicap, then two quite widely separated players can still have a good match by wheeling off the lower cap. I've played against guys who I had to give anywhere from 0 to 20 strokes and still had the matches come right down to the wire, even have to go to extra holes to decide a winner.

To be equitable in stroke play, most tournaments need to be flighted to minimize the handicap spread between competitors. That isn't necessary in a match.

[bplewis24]

Very rarely does a 0-5 index player take home the big prize in a net event.

This is my first year establishing a handicap and playing in tournaments/events with a golf club. I've played in every event this year, and typically the 0-5 index players always win the "putts" competition. However, they only occasionally win 1st prize in the net stroke play events.

Often it depends on which flight they are in, but a lot of the times you can count on one of the several high-handicappers to shoot a net 65-68 that beats everybody else, including the guy playing off a 4 handicap that shoots a gross 74, for a net 70. Incidentally, I believe I played with my first group of sand baggers in the last event. It just so happened that it was a team-scoring tournament. Best ball holes 1-6, best two balls holes 7-12, best 3 balls holes 13-18. Every guy I played with was getting 25 or more strokes, and 2 of them shot within 2 strokes of me, playing off of a 14. I suspect one of them was a sandbagger, because his game was pretty consistent. Our group ended up taking 2nd place, despite the fact that I shot 5 over my handicap. Brandon

[acegolfer]

Very rarely does a 0-5 index player take home the big prize in a net event.

I see this is more likely to happen, when the field is large. It's possible for a mid capper to shoot net score of 65 but very hard to see a low capper to shoot the same net score. It's a statistical fact, given that high cappers have higher variance.

However, in my 15-man league (which plays by the rule and keeps USGA handicap), the lowest capper has the most # of wins and the most $ won. In the 4 tournaments this year, he finished 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st. The 2nd lowest capper has the 2nd most $ won.