"Swing Machine Golf" by Paul Wilson

[Vinsk]

6 hours ago, realcam said:

I think Paul Wilson teaches the right thing and he keeps it simple. So far I've only looked at his free videos but I'm seriously considering buying his book/dvd.

He gets some points right. Yes. But with golf instruction, that doesn’t pass for me. Did you watch that video? Swing slowly, then just ‘increase your hip turn speed’. No. That is 100% false.

LPGA players have actually been tested and shown to have faster hips than the men. How many LPGA players swing the club 115-120mph? How many drive the ball 325+ yards? There must be something else going on right? Exactly.

What PW is most likely ‘feeling’ is that he is in good sync. That’s what produces good clubhead speed. If your hips/arms are out of sync then it will not feel ‘effortless.’ If they are in sync, although it will ‘feel’ effortless it simply isn’t. Period. Teaching someone to just increase their hip turn speed to generate more clubhead speed could easily screw up someone who has a habit of spinning out of their swing. 

Performing a synchronized movement of hip bump towards the target and lead hip rotation with a proper arm sequence is what generates power and speed. Isolating the hips as the controller while the arms are ‘passive’ is wrong.

[realcam]

Hi Vinsk,

I take your point but tbh I'm not really qualified to discuss the finer details of golf teaching. I'm only a modest handicap golfer.

I like his general idea of swinging from the bottom up and leaving arms and hands passive. It seems to work for me a lot better than what I was doing before. I don't necessarily take every little detail on board. 

And its not even PW where I'm coming from. It's a golf buddy who took pity on me about 3 years ago and told me I need to change or I will never improve. He send me down the path of a bottom to top body driven golf swing and we used to practice together quite a bit. But he has moved home about a year ago and is no longer a member in my club and we only meet up once in a while. Since then I'm looking for instructions and drills that generally go down the same line. Thats how I came across PW and I quite like him. He has a nice swing and doesn't overcomplicate things. I'm middle aged and off 12 and will never have a tour like swing. I think I understand what PW is trying to say. He even looks a bit like my buddy. 😉

regards

realcam

Edited April 29, 2018 by realcam

[iacas]

7 hours ago, realcam said:

I'm a registered user for years but never really posted much or anything.

Well, you joined in December of 2017, but either way we're happy to have you here!

7 hours ago, realcam said:

I'm not a fantastic golfer myself, came late to the game at age 35, playing for 10 years now and I'm currently off 12. I enjoy it very much, its a brilliant game and I intend to play it for many years to come. So lately I started to put a bit of thought into how I can get as good as possible.

My recommendation: seek out the best instruction you can find, and avoid "feel-based" instruction because everyone's feels are different. What works for some - or even what works for some one week - may not work for others or that same person two weeks later.

Keep an open mind and be very good at prioritizing ONE thing at a time. Or, find an instructor who can help you do that.

This isn't the topic here so I've kept that short.

7 hours ago, realcam said:

We put what seems like a lot of physical effort into it with little result. Then we see lady golfers and juniors who simply aren't strong enough to chug at the ball hitting it past us with what seems a lot less effort.

One key there IMO is "seems like." Balance and fluidity and tempo can make a very fast, very effort-packed swing "seem" like it is effortless.

The other key is that a lot of amateurs spend their energy, their effort, sending body parts or the clubhead or whatever in the wrong direction and then compensating.

7 hours ago, realcam said:

From what I can tell by now it is about getting away from using effort from the top.

The best players in the world are expending tremendous effort from the top of the backswing down into impact. With virtually every part of their body - their legs, their core, their back, their shoulders, their arms…

Tremendous effort.

Feel ain't real. Paul is teaching a feel, which remains my biggest problem with his instruction. It's not real.

Sure, for some people, that feel might click or work for awhile. But ultimately it's not what's really happening. I teach players entirely by feel, but it's based on the actual mechanics, what's actually happening in the golf swing.

52 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

What PW is most likely ‘feeling’ is that he is in good sync. That’s what produces good clubhead speed. If your hips/arms are out of sync then it will not feel ‘effortless.’ If they are in sync, although it will ‘feel’ effortless it simply isn’t. Period. Teaching someone to just increase their hip turn speed to generate more clubhead speed could easily screw up someone who has a habit of spinning out of their swing.

Yep.

I end up teaching a good number of people to "speed up their arms" because their pivots simply leave their arms behind.

35 minutes ago, realcam said:

I like his general idea of swinging from the bottom up and leaving arms and hands passive. It seems to work for me a lot better than what I was doing before. I don't necessarily take every little detail on board.

And its not even PW where I'm coming from. It's a golf buddy who took pity on me about 3 years ago and told me I need to change or I will never improve. He send me down the path of a bottom to top body driven golf swing and we used to practice together quite a bit. But he has moved home about a year ago and is no longer a member in my club and we only meet up once in a while. Since then I'm looking for instructions and drills that generally go down the same line. Thats how I came across PW and I quite like him. He has a nice swing and doesn't overcomplicate things. I'm middle aged and off 12 and will never have a tour like swing. I think I understand what PW is trying to say. He even looks a bit like my buddy. 😉

My suggestion remains: just find a good instructor. Good instructors can teach anyone.

[realcam]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Well, you joined in December of 2017, but either way we're happy to have you here!

Well thank you and, ugh, genuinely thought I registered a lot earlier than that. Been lurking for a good few years anyway. Sorry didn't mean to mislead.

I love golf. Brilliant game and the fact it's so hard makes it even better.

Edited April 29, 2018 by realcam

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, realcam said:

Well thank you and, ugh, genuinely thought I registered a lot earlier than that. Been lurking for a good few years anyway. Sorry didn't mean to mislead.

 I love golf. Brilliant game and the fact it's so hard makes it even better.

All good.

At the end of the day we all have golf in common. We all love it, and are passionate about it, and I'd have a beer and play 18 holes with almost all of you.

[Shaggie13]

I'm going to cut off my arms and see how fast I can swing the club.  brb

[Vinsk]

8 hours ago, Shaggie13 said:

I'm going to cut off my arms and see how fast I can swing the club.  brb

No need. With the rotation of your body your arms become weightless.

[clinkinfo]

I decided to join so I could comment in this thread much like another member did.  You folks have been nothing short of difficult and irritated from the start, the guy came into the thread to discuss and clarify points but you did nothing but jump on him and tell him he's wrong.  The best part, you're just spouting an opinion as well (especially iacas), you aren't "right", you're just stating your own personal opinion on golf instruction.  

And just because you must have a competing product or some affiliation with a competing instructional product, you keep trying to say he's a "feel" based teacher (like that's a negative, which is funny by itself!).  He's not, he has specific positions he teaches and a multiple of non-feel based instruction in the program.  But again, keep repeating it, maybe folks will believe you if you say it enough. 

He uses the term effortless to describe swinging with your body and not your arms.  Of course it takes effort.  No one is saying you can get off the couch and swing 120mph without effort.  What he IS saying is, there's people that look like they are swinging as hard as a lumberjack and can't break 90MPH, and there are people who look like they are on a Sunday stroll swinging 120mph.   We have ALL seen that, we have ALL experienced those 2 types of players.  If you play golf long enough, you KNOW that's true.  There are a people who swing with everything they have using their ARMS ONLY, and there are people who know how to rotate their body and release their wrists to generate speed in what looks smooth and effortless.  It's so disingenuous for some of you folks to pretend you have no clue what he's talking about.   We all know what he's talking about. 

Tension is a speed killer.  So if you want to have a semantic argument about how "tension" in your arms feels, be my guest.  His method is trying to eliminate the arm tension and allow them to rotate around your body and release wrists at the proper moment to generate speed.  All pretty FUNDAMENTALLY agreeable points in all golf instruction I've ever seen, but again, you guys decided to jump on the guy and slam him for even these simple fundamentals (obviously, again, you have some alternative agenda or competing products).  

Some of you in here should just stop participating in this thread.  You're not neutral, and you are certainly not trying to help review a product.  You probably haven't even seen his actual product, just some youtube videos, if anything.  It doesn't matter what he says, you'll try and tell everyone he's wrong.  You have a clear agenda and even when you're wrong, you can't let anything go and keep posting over and over and over again with stupid content try and "prove your point".  Watch the guy swing, he has a smooth easy tempo, but fast rotation and release.   but you seem to even give him a hard time about that!    

I had the opportunity to watch his program and use some of his drills and positions in real life.  Very solid training in my opinion.  He gives very easy relatable drills and positions, he explains the concepts and details well, and he definitely has something unique in how he teaches in the program videos.  I'm not affiliated with him, I've never met him, I don't know him, I only watched the program.  So for those who are considering it as a possibility, pay more attention to the folks in here talking about their successes with it, I've had similar success using his concepts.  Even though some others are persistant and post MORE FREQUENTLY, it doesn't make them right.  It just makes them loud.  

He's got a good product, and I appreciate that he came into this thread and TRIED to help those who were interested understand his program.  Those of you who acted like 5 year olds and ended up making him leave, shame on you, you ruined it for the rest of the members here.  

 

 

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

I decided to join so I could comment in this thread much like another member did.  You folks have been nothing short of difficult and irritated from the start, the guy came into the thread to discuss and clarify points but you did nothing but jump on him and tell him he's wrong.  The best part, you're just spouting an opinion as well (especially iacas), you aren't "right", you're just stating your own personal opinion on golf instruction.  

Yeah, no, this is complete bullshit. I'm not stating my opinion on how much the arms contribute to the golf swing. Not int he least, We have not only physics, but anatomy, geometry, and actual studies where people have hooked things up to golfers and measured muscle activity.

I've never said that Paul can't help golfers get better, but what I have said is that he's teaching a "feel" that is not actually what good players are doing. They're not. Good players are not swinging "effortlessly." They're not just turning and letting their arms follow.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

And just because you must have a competing product or some affiliation with a competing instructional product, you keep trying to say he's a "feel" based teacher (like that's a negative, which is funny by itself!).  He's not, he has specific positions he teaches and a multiple of non-feel based instruction in the program.  But again, keep repeating it, maybe folks will believe you if you say it enough.

People believe me because what I say is based in fact. I've also stated many, many times that every player is a feel player, and feels are the only way to teach the proper mechanics, so no, you're off base with the first part of this paragraph, as well.

Feel isn't negative - it just isn't really often what people are actually doing. When discussing theory, I prefer to focus on reality, not "feel" stuff. Everyone's feels are different.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

He uses the term effortless to describe swinging with your body and not your arms.

The best players in the world swing with their arms, too. Quite a bit more speed is generated from their arms, in fact.

And again, there are plenty of students out there who need to be told to swing MORE with their arms, because they're doing too little with them and need to use their arms more.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

What he IS saying is, there's people that look like they are swinging as hard as a lumberjack and can't break 90MPH, and there are people who look like they are on a Sunday stroll swinging 120mph.

What you're missing is that I don't care at all about what it "looks like" to someone. I care what good players are actually doing.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

There are a people who swing with everything they have using their ARMS ONLY, and there are people who know how to rotate their body and release their wrists to generate speed in what looks smooth and effortless.  It's so disingenuous for some of you folks to pretend you have no clue what he's talking about.   We all know what he's talking about.

It's not disingenuous. What's disingenuous is you coming on here and lecturing me without even understanding my position on this.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Tension is a speed killer. So if you want to have a semantic argument about how "tension" in your arms feels, be my guest.

That's literally not happening. Nobody's discussing "tension."

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

His method is trying to eliminate the arm tension and allow them to rotate around your body and release wrists at the proper moment to generate speed. All pretty FUNDAMENTALLY agreeable points in all golf instruction I've ever seen, but again, you guys decided to jump on the guy and slam him for even these simple fundamentals (obviously, again, you have some alternative agenda or competing products).

Swinging your arms is a fundamental agreeable point. Good players are expending a tremendous amount of effort to swing their arms.

You're railing against golfers who just swing their arms, but you also can't just turn your body and have no tension or "effortless" arms.

That's the point I'm making in a nutshell.

And give up on the "competing products" bull. Paul Wilson is not competing with me. I'm not taking his students from him, nor he from me.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Some of you in here should just stop participating in this thread. You're not neutral, and you are certainly not trying to help review a product.

Again, bull.

I'm reviewing what he's said, what he's written, what he produces in a video, and discussing and debating it. You're acting like, because you like his instruction, you're less biased than me? You may be more biased. I'm looking at the information and sharing facts. Facts don't have a bias. "Like" is a bias.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

You probably haven't even seen his actual product, just some youtube videos, if anything.  It doesn't matter what he says, you'll try and tell everyone he's wrong.

You don't know me very well. If he says something factual, I'll acknowledge it.

Just as I've acknowledged that the feel of using the body more and not using the arms can help some golfers. But it's not what they're actually doing. That's the entire basis of my objection.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

Watch the guy swing, he has a smooth easy tempo, but fast rotation and release.   but you seem to even give him a hard time about that!

He's also expending tremendous energy with his arms, which he says he's not or doesn't "feel" as though he is doing.

And let's not even get into the wrist stuff, which I also don't believe you can support with facts…

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

I had the opportunity to watch his program and use some of his drills and positions in real life. Very solid training in my opinion. He gives very easy relatable drills and positions, he explains the concepts and details well, and he definitely has something unique in how he teaches in the program videos.  I'm not affiliated with him, I've never met him, I don't know him, I only watched the program.  So for those who are considering it as a possibility, pay more attention to the folks in here talking about their successes with it, I've had similar success using his concepts.  Even though some others are persistant and post MORE FREQUENTLY, it doesn't make them right.  It just makes them loud.

Glad you've had success. Truly.

But what makes me right is that I'm actually right - the facts are on my side. Good players don't just turn the body and don't expend any effort with their arms. Good golfers are expending tremendous effort through their arms. Paul is teaching a feel.

46 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

He's got a good product, and I appreciate that he came into this thread and TRIED to help those who were interested understand his program.  Those of you who acted like 5 year olds and ended up making him leave, shame on you, you ruined it for the rest of the members here.  

Paul couldn't answer the basic questions posed to him earlier. He completely misinterpreted what I said in his last post, and even another member called him out on that one.

Again, I'm glad his feels or videos helped you, but, again, it boils down to this: He's teaching a "feel" and not what good golfers actually do in their golf swing. I like to discuss what people actually do in their golf swing. Feels vary. What's actually happening, the facts, do not.

Fact: Good players expend tremendous effort to move their arms, and in fact a significant portion of their clubhead speed comes from the motion of their arms.

[Vinsk]

@clinkinfo You do realize this topic is to discuss, review PW’s product correct? And your assumption is wrong , I bought PW video instructional series. Did you bother to read my post about the ‘increase your hip speed’ video of PW?

As I stated (along with agreeing he gets some information correct) this instruction is simply wrong. And I listed an example of how it is wrong. Your point on this?

As @iacas said, we here want to know what good golfers do. We don’t care what someone feels as feels are not consistent from on person to the next.

Nicklaus said he feels that he swings inside a barrel. Fine. But did he? Have you watched videos of his swing? He does not stay within a barrel by any means. So if I were new to golf and read his instruction I would incorrectly eliminate any hip bump towards the target and most likely have zero or minimal weight transfer.

The only bias here is for facts, data backed instruction and demonstrations. You ask @iacas to explain and back up his instruction...you’ll get more than you can digest. PW gets asked and he bolts and you get offended we didn’t accept his swing theories as gold. Come on man....

[sandman12]

Hi, new member so maybe be patient with me in case I breach some standard of conduct or whatever.

I purchased the BodySwing by Paul Wilson, which is the latest version of his swing program.

It provides you with details on the grip, how to build a consistent setup/stance process, checkpoints and basis for your swing,

In my view it is aimed at mid to high handicappers who want to hit fairways more consistently and gain some distance by reducing the likelihood of casting. It has helped me reduce my handicap and be more consistent. 

Part of Paul's program is to practice each of the elements until they become second nature. If you don't have time to practice then it isn't worth buying -  if you get a lesson from the local pga and they change anything in your swing you need to practice it, otherwise what's the point as without practice you will be unlikely to implement the swing change, and you'll just me another one of the members at the local golf club complaining about the dodgy lesson from the pro, when it reality the lesson was fine but a lack of discipline in practicing the drills and changes the pro recommended are the cause of the problem.

I helped out at our club's junior program (for new players who don't have handicaps). A lot of what Paul teaches is consistent with what I saw the pro teaching the juniors. The juniors get a lesson every week for 12 months, and they keep getting the weekly lessons for up to 2 years. The club provides this as a way to encourage children to play golf. the reason I mention this is that the basics, grip, stance, setup and basic swing takes the juniors around a year or more to become ingrained depending on the amount of practice they do. I see Paul's program teaching these same concepts for a lot less than the cost of 12 lessons, let alone the number the kids get.

In summary, to me I believe the program is aimed at mid to high handicappers, it has helped me improve my game and enjoy it more. It has helped me lower my handicap and be more competitive in matchplay by helping me develop an ingrained process for setup, and swing. It has done this at a reasonable price, so I figure I have received good value for money. If you are already a low single figure or scratch golfer or a pga pro I wouldn't recommend it as you are likely to have all of the basics that he teaches ingrained already. 

In terms of whether the teaching methodology is the best or whatever, then the same as all teaching, the results of the students is the best way to determine appropriateness of otherwise. I teach in a classroom and teachers have endless discussions about which method is best - different methods suit different students, and the kids will let you know when it suits or doesn't suit. This program and method suited me.

 

 

 

 

[DARTSO]

New to STS as of today and have barely poked around enough to know what I'm doing in here.  I did, however, read this entire thread (over the course of a couple days) and have to admit I got lost along the way several times!

I'm returning to golf after a few years away and I'm introducing my 14 y/o daughter and 12 y/o son to the game.  We're having an enjoyable enough time, but I've never received any formal instruction, and I'd like to learn a "right way" to swing the golf club for full swings (and go from there).  Based on calculators I've used online, using the rounds I've played this year, I think my handicap is 15.4 and my index is 11.2 (but I'm not certain that I'm figuring this out correctly).  Best round is 91, if that's any indication of my skill.

I've been considering Paul Wilson's 'The Body Swing' program, and this thread has been eye-opening.  I don't know anything about 5SK but it sounds like I should check it out.  This year, over the last few weeks, I've nearly eliminated my ridiculous slice from pointers gained from youtube tutorials by Rich Shiels.  I don't think I have a good swing, however, and I definitely feel like I am primarily using my arms to hit the ball, especially driving the ball from the tee.  I don't have distance worth noting (I'd like to be longer- who wouldn't, lol) but I drove the ball (including roll on a dry fairway) 260 yds.  I don't experience a lot of pain after a round of golf, but I feel tightness in my back sometimes and I'm wondering if that could lead to pain issues over time.

I get that an "effortless swing" is a potentially deceptive description for a golf swing, but I for sure want to swing as naturally as possible, for whatever my swing should be, and I want to try to teach my kids to do the same.  Paul Wilson's methods sound like they have worked for a lot of people.  The wife rolls her eyes when I reach for my clubs - not sure I'll be able to spend the $97 for the program with her blessing!

Time to sink some time into TST forums to see what all is being offered here.

[iacas]

It’s off topic so I’ll be short but if your best round is 91 you’re not an 11 or a 15 index.

I recommend starting a Member Swing topic. Welcome to TST.

[Vinsk]

On 7/24/2018 at 1:34 AM, sandman12 said:

  if you get a lesson from the local pga and they change anything in your swing you need to practice it, o

If the change was poor advice this can wreck havoc on a student’s progress. 

On 7/24/2018 at 1:34 AM, sandman12 said:

when it reality the lesson was fine but a lack of discipline in practicing the drills and changes the pro recommended are the cause of the problem.

 

Or the student was very diligent and worked hard to ingrain an unfavorable motion such as spinning their hips faster and coming out of their swing.

That advice may work for some but may only exacerbate another’s problem.

4 hours ago, DARTSO said:

I get that an "effortless swing" is a potentially deceptive description for a golf swing, but I for sure want to swing as naturally as possible

Well nothing in the golf swing is very natural..lol. I went through the PW Body Swing program. I agree he explains the basics well and is easy to follow. Nothing original or new there. But some of the finer points he starts to use ‘feels’ which as you’ve read may or may not work for you. As Erik said a good teacher can teach anyone. PW is trying to implement them as a universal swing thought which is wrong just as the example I pointed out regarding hip turn. Welcome to TST and glad you’re another golf enthusiast!

[DARTSO]

On 8/9/2018 at 12:10 PM, iacas said:

It’s off topic so I’ll be short but if your best round is 91 you’re not an 11 or a 15 index.

I recommend starting a Member Swing topic. Welcome to TST.

iacas, you're absolutely correct!  I feel like an idiot, I was calculating my handicap totally wrong apparently.  I'm more like a 30!

Working my way through the myriad of 5SK videos on youtube as of now.  Are the vids posted by 'thegolfevolution' the series I'm looking for (created by iacas/Erik)??

Thanks for the welcome guys.

[iacas]

This early in your evolution as a golfer (no pun intended), I honestly just recommend…

1. Get a good grip.
2. Get a good address/setup position.
3. Learn what a good impact position feels like by hitting some shorter punchier type shots.
4. Learn to hit a chip shot, and learn to hit decent putts.
5. Swing. Play golf. Do this for awhile, and then and only then try to figure out what your biggest issues are.

#1:

#2:

#3:

#4:

#5:

Hope that helps!

[Hacker James]

I am a little surprized that this thread is still alive, but then again, from time to time it is revisited by some one new to the forum.  Golf instruction is fairly subjective. A lot depends on how a particular instructor can relate to the individual. Paul Wilson has a lot of followers and many have benefited from his instruction.   There are many well qualified instructors. The "good" ones appear to ascribe to mostly the same basic principles as well they should. They differ in  emphasis, or "how" they explain. The 5SK model is excellent and most, if not all, elements can be readily be seen in  their instruction.  I have looked at quite a few, including, but not limited to the likes of Shawn Clement, Zach Allen, C,J. Goeks, Martin Chuck, Revolution Golf and others.  I followed Paul for awhile and got a lot out of it, but later on I learned other things, dismissed "some" of what Paul teaches in favor of techniques that seemed (to me) to make better sense.  My particular favorite would have to be  Martin Chuck, but mostly because his style resonates with me. 

One need look no further than what is suggested on this site (5SK), provided the instructional style suits you.

[Antneye]

I skipped ahead and will come back and read the rest of this debate when I have more time. I just want to say that there is nothing wrong with taking snippets from multiple sources when working on your swing. I am a big fan of the work of @iacas and the rest of the folks on this board. I also happen to like Paul Wilson's work. I don't, for a second, think that my arms are dead when I swing. However, the feel that Wilson describes is one that helps me not to start the swing with my arms. That feeling of "leaving my arms behind when I start the downswing" has helped me to smooth out my transition and get less OTT. That coupled with the great info on this site has helped me to swing the club better than I ever have even if I am still struggling with my score (predominantly due to my driver as can be seen in my swing thread)

Bottom line IMHO is that you can learn from multiple sources each with different teaching methods. Wilson's books are built around a feel (or marketing concept), but most of what he teaches is very similar in terms of grip, posture, etc. I don't think that detracts at all from the more technical instruction we get here. 

I am very technical, so while swing machine helped me it just wasn't enough to get me over the learning hump. But I certainly was helped by his instruction.