Should Viewers Be Able to Call in Rules Violations

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by shades9323

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Originally Posted by sacm3bill

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

At the end of the day, what they do on the PGA Tour has no effect on my life so, whatever. Cheers

Well actually.... (  sorry, I know it seems I'm just being argumentative, but hear me out...)  It does have an affect on me or anyone else who follows the rules, whether in casual rounds or a tournament, because the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use. So if they change a rule on the Tour that makes it easier to cheat (I know Sean, we disagree on that), it makes it easier for millions of amateurs to cheat too. That's why some of us do have a vested interest in this topic.

Well actually....  It doesn't affect you as PGA Tour rules don't apply to you.  USGA rules apply to you.  While the pga tour goes by the USGA rules, they are free to make up and use their own rules(for pga tour run tournaments) which you would not be subject to.

Yep, I know the USGA rules apply to me, and I also know that the PGA uses USGA rules currently, so until they change that policy, the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use, which is exactly what I said.

[BigMikey]

What is the point of this poll?

The viewers and spectators are already allowed and do notify rules officials and PGA / USGA organizations.  Even by twitter and FB.  Most of us agree they should not but the fact is it already occurs and is approved.  To me this seems more of a post to flame or get flamed by others.

The fact that most people agree this should not be done, allowed or encouraged indicates that the golfing community as a whole has a big issue with it.  It should be looked at and changes made.  I can think of many that would make golf more enjoyable for others and would be.  The fact that the ROG are so complicated and thought out to the point that most PGA players don't know them all is an even bigger indication that the game rules are off course and need simplification.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by BigMikey

The fact that most people agree this should not be done, allowed or encouraged indicates that the golfing community as a whole has a big issue with it.  It should be looked at and changes made.  I can think of many that would make golf more enjoyable for others and would be.  The fact that the ROG are so complicated and thought out to the point that most PGA players don't know them all is an even bigger indication that the game rules are off course and need simplification.

Public opinion is not always right.

Go ahead and try to simplify the rules. I'll find loopholes left and right.

The truth of the matter is that, for a game played on 200+ acres, and worldwide, with spectators, animals, houses, personal equipment, grounds crews, etc., the Rules of Golf are actually rather simple. Have you seen the NFL rules book? You'd be surprised.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

At the end of the day, what they do on the PGA Tour has no effect on my life so, whatever. Cheers

Well actually.... (  sorry, I know it seems I'm just being argumentative, but hear me out...)  It does have an affect on me or anyone else who follows the rules, whether in casual rounds or a tournament, because the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use. So if they change a rule on the Tour that makes it easier to cheat (I know Sean, we disagree on that), it makes it easier for millions of amateurs to cheat too. That's why some of us do have a vested interest in this topic.

Well actually....  It doesn't affect you as PGA Tour rules don't apply to you.  USGA rules apply to you.  While the pga tour goes by the USGA rules, they are free to make up and use their own rules(for pga tour run tournaments) which you would not be subject to.

Yep, I know the USGA rules apply to me, and I also know that the PGA uses USGA rules currently, so until they change that policy, the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use, which is exactly what I said.

Actually they are not as there are no "pga tour" rules.  If "pga tour" rules do come around, you will not be subject to abide by them as an amature.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

At the end of the day, what they do on the PGA Tour has no effect on my life so, whatever. Cheers

Well actually.... (  sorry, I know it seems I'm just being argumentative, but hear me out...)  It does have an affect on me or anyone else who follows the rules, whether in casual rounds or a tournament, because the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use. So if they change a rule on the Tour that makes it easier to cheat (I know Sean, we disagree on that), it makes it easier for millions of amateurs to cheat too. That's why some of us do have a vested interest in this topic.

Well actually....  It doesn't affect you as PGA Tour rules don't apply to you.  USGA rules apply to you.  While the pga tour goes by the USGA rules, they are free to make up and use their own rules(for pga tour run tournaments) which you would not be subject to.

Yep, I know the USGA rules apply to me, and I also know that the PGA uses USGA rules currently, so until they change that policy, the PGA Tour rules are the same rules that amateurs use, which is exactly what I said.

Actually they are not as there are no "pga tour" rules.  If "pga tour" rules do come around, you will not be subject to abide by them as an amature.

If it makes you happy I'll stop writing "PGA tour rules" and use "the rules that the PGA tour uses" instead. My point remains that the PGA Tour uses USGA rules. That's why Finchem is currently lobbying the USGA to review the rules in the wake of the recent DQ's.  Yeah, if the PGA ever had their own rules they wouldn't affect amateurs, but the PGA Tour policy is to use the USGA rules, so if they get the USGA to change the rule, it does affect me.

[shades9323]

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know the answer to that, and if you *haven't* read the entire thread I don't see how you can make an informed decision, not having seen all the arguments that have been made. In fact I think the poll numbers are what they are simply because so many are voting "No" as a kneejerk reaction without considering all the arguments presented in this thread by the "Yes" voters.

[ejimsmith]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know the answer to that, and if you *haven't* read the entire thread I don't see how you can make an informed decision, not having seen all the arguments that have been made. In fact I think the poll numbers are what they are simply because so many are voting "No" as a kneejerk reaction without considering all the arguments presented in this thread by the "Yes" voters.

i've read the whole thread, and still stick w/ my original "no" post.   why are there people here refusing to accept that 2/3rds of the voters here say "NO"?

[max power]

Haven't really heard a good argument in support.  The Monkees sold more records in 1967 than The Beatles and The Rolling Stones combined...

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know the answer to that, and if you *haven't* read the entire thread I don't see how you can make an informed decision, not having seen all the arguments that have been made. In fact I think the poll numbers are what they are simply because so many are voting "No" as a kneejerk reaction without considering all the arguments presented in this thread by the "Yes" voters.

i've read the whole thread, and still stick w/ my original "no" post.   why are there people here refusing to accept that 2/3rds of the voters here say "NO"?

[ejimsmith]

Originally Posted by max power

Haven't really heard a good argument in support.  The Monkees sold more records in 1967 than The Beatles and The Rolling Stones combined...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know the answer to that, and if you *haven't* read the entire thread I don't see how you can make an informed decision, not having seen all the arguments that have been made. In fact I think the poll numbers are what they are simply because so many are voting "No" as a kneejerk reaction without considering all the arguments presented in this thread by the "Yes" voters.

i've read the whole thread, and still stick w/ my original "no" post.   why are there people here refusing to accept that 2/3rds of the voters here say "NO"?

that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, same as the rest of us.  i've read plenty of good arguments in support of "no".. so there!

[max power]

Ahh, the "so there" rebuttal.  It's like you're rubber and I'm glue or something...

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, same as the rest of us.  i've read plenty of good arguments in support of "no".. so there!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sharkhark

no...no...no..should you be allowed to call in. no other sport does it. golf doesnt need it. if a player missed a microscopic rules infraction and so did the other walking officials...lets not have a old geezer sitting in his barka lounger doing the officiating from iowa.

no.

When will you people get it through your heads that there are no "walking officials" in golf except at times in match play, and it's rare even there.  Give it up.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Erik,

Did you expect the poll to turn out differently?

To be honest, yes, I did. I know "viewers calling in" is a hot button type thing but I thought that as golfers we'd generally favor "getting the ruling correct" regardless of who points it out. After all, and as I've said before, "the person who notices it" has no effect on "whether it actually happened or not." The facts don't change because Person B saw it instead of Person A.

Facts are facts, rules officials have a job to do (and it's not "enforcement"), and The Committee is bound to act on any findings of fact that are presented to them.

Golf is not the NFL. Intent is irrelevant. And a broken rule is a broken rule.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by BigMikey

What is the point of this poll?

The viewers and spectators are already allowed and do notify rules officials and PGA / USGA organizations.  Even by twitter and FB.  Most of us agree they should not but the fact is it already occurs and is approved.  To me this seems more of a post to flame or get flamed by others.

The fact that most people agree this should not be done, allowed or encouraged indicates that the golfing community as a whole has a big issue with it.  It should be looked at and changes made.  I can think of many that would make golf more enjoyable for others and would be.  The fact that the ROG are so complicated and thought out to the point that most PGA players don't know them all is an even bigger indication that the game rules are off course and need simplification.

It just confirms my belief that most "players" simply know very little about the rules, and a great many seem to care even less.  Yet they still have the gall to call themselves golfers.  It's one thing to play by the rules as you know them, even if your knowledge is fairly rudimentary, and be willing to learn more as you gain experience.  It's another to simply buy unconditionally into the myth that they are too complex and use that as an excuse to just ignore them.  Or to propose some vague simplifications which cannot possibly work.

If most players committed 2% of the time they spend beating balls to learning the rules, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion, because most of you would then understand why the rule needs to be as it is.  Rules don't get changed as a result of a knee jerk reflex, and that is all that this is.

[sean_miller]

Even though this thread is 14 pages long, not much has been added since the first 2 or 3 pages.

[sharkhark]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

@sharkhark: Other sports have referees whose job it is to call infractions.  Golf has no such referees, only rules officials who are there to assist the players with questions. In golf, the players themselves are responsible for calling the penalties. That's part of the beauty of golf that makes it different from other sports.

There, asked and answered one more time.

you contradict yourself...you say players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves...but then you say it is ok for people at home on the couch to call in. which is it?

either players are responsible themselves...or their not..you cant have it both ways.

Players are responsible for calling penalties on themselves. When they don't, and an official sees it, the official has the responsibility of calling it. But it's not *solely* the officials job to call it in golf, like it is in other sports.

But you think it's got to be one or the other, eh? Ok, is it *only* the players who are responsible for calling a penalty on themselves? Leaving aside the fact that the rules of golf state differently, are you saying a player who doesn''t call a penalty when they commit an infraction should get away with it even if their playing partners, an official, and 100 spectators saw it, as long as the player doesn't call it on themselves? Doesn't make much sense does it? Hmm, so then it's *only* the officials who can call penalties, I see - but wait, how is that going to work with the current state of only one rule official every 3 holes or so?  And what if a player knows he broke a rule and wants to call himself on it - I guess he can't because only an official can do it.

You sure you don't want to rethink this?

well the football player who had a hold and was not seen gets away with it? the baseball player who missed the tag but gets credit for an out gets it...so why doesnt the golfer? keeping in mind almost every time i see a golf incident it is quite obvious that the player innocently made a mistake whereas for example in football a player might try to get a way with a hold...that semi cheating is cheating but part of the game..in golf it appears that an innocent mistake should be allowed to be influenced by someone calling in.

i say...and so do most pga players...the ones who do this for a living...not you and i talking in a chat section...most say...let the drama on the field take place...players and rules officials on the course make decisions and if something is missed...its missed.

when a game i love like nfl is influenced by a missed call..it dont bother me and it would not in golf. if i thought the guy purposely cheated?

sure.

but does anybody honestly thing dustin tried to cheat? no. nobody in sound mind thinks that. do they thing that poulter tried to drop his ball on coin on purpose?

no. these are accidents.

i think once the tourney is underway the homies at home should watch, enjoy and not influence the game.

[BigMikey]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMikey

What is the point of this poll?

The viewers and spectators are already allowed and do notify rules officials and PGA / USGA organizations.  Even by twitter and FB.  Most of us agree they should not but the fact is it already occurs and is approved.  To me this seems more of a post to flame or get flamed by others.

The fact that most people agree this should not be done, allowed or encouraged indicates that the golfing community as a whole has a big issue with it.  It should be looked at and changes made.  I can think of many that would make golf more enjoyable for others and would be.  The fact that the ROG are so complicated and thought out to the point that most PGA players don't know them all is an even bigger indication that the game rules are off course and need simplification.

It just confirms my belief that most "players" simply know very little about the rules, and a great many seem to care even less.  Yet they still have the gall to call themselves golfers.  It's one thing to play by the rules as you know them, even if your knowledge is fairly rudimentary, and be willing to learn more as you gain experience.  It's another to simply buy unconditionally into the myth that they are too complex and use that as an excuse to just ignore them.  Or to propose some vague simplifications which cannot possibly work.

If most players committed 2% of the time they spend beating balls to learning the rules, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion, because most of you would then understand why the rule needs to be as it is.  Rules don't get changed as a result of a knee jerk reflex, and that is all that this is.

People getting DQ'd after rounds are over for balls moving 1.5 dimples back are not knee jerk reflex's.  It's simply golfers in a community saying enough of the BS, you loosing the whole spirit of the original game.  Now if you place a ball back by your marker it has to be exactly in the spot to the dimple.  Come on man... freaking ridiculous!

I sent out an invite to Barry to see if he'll join my regular foursome so we don't break the ROG.

[zeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkhark

for example in football a player might try to get a way with a hold...that semi cheating is cheating but part of the game..in golf it appears that an innocent mistake should be allowed to be influenced by someone calling in.

This difference between football and golf is a beautiful thing about golf and an unfortunate, bordering on disgusting, feature of football.  That the mistake was innocent is mostly irrelevant.  Do you really want to see golf turn into everyone bending the rules just shy of breaking them they way football players do?  That's what you're asking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMikey

People getting DQ'd after rounds are over for balls moving 1.5 dimples back are not knee jerk reflex's.  It's simply golfers in a community saying enough of the BS, you loosing the whole spirit of the original game.  Now if you place a ball back by your marker it has to be exactly in the spot to the dimple.  Come on man... freaking ridiculous!

You seem to misunderstand the spirit of the original game.

Rule 1-1:

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules .

So yes, you need to replace the ball in exactly the same spot the best you possibly can.  If your ball moves other than by a stroke, unless there's a rule that says otherwise, you need to take a penalty. The DQ here is about as close to the original spirit of the game as you can be.