Hitting a Fade With a Varyingly Closed Stance

[HogansSecrets]

Hello all this is my first post; I hope to generate some feedback and/or good insight: Fact: Pro golfers can hit draws and fades from closed and open stances.

Question 1: Why is that?

Question 2: Can someone take a good shot at explaining the dynamics of hitting a fade through a varyingly closed stance through a set of irons?

Keep in mind you can have a closed/open stance and aim that right or left of the target. Please someone who has knowledge: enlighten,

[iacas]

Originally Posted by HogansSecrets

Question 1: Why is that?

Because the physics of ball flight aren't that hard to understand. They can apply those physics from a closed or open stance.

Originally Posted by HogansSecrets

Question 2: Can someone take a good shot at explaining the dynamics of hitting a fade through a varyingly closed stance through a set of irons?

I'm not sure what's to understand.

Let's make up some numbers for a closed stance fade.

Target is at 0 degrees.

Stance is 5 degrees right of that (closed stance).

Clubface is 5 degrees left of target (10 degrees closed to stance).

Swing path is 5 degrees left of clubface, 10 degrees left of target, and 15 degrees left of stance.

This would be a really, really big pull fade. The ball would be low, the ball would start left of the target and the stance, and fade back to the target.

Reverse for an open-stance draw:

Target at 0.

Stance 5 left.

Clubface 5 right, 10 to right of stance.

Path 10 right of target, 15 right of stance.

Ball flight would be really high.

[Zeph]

It's pretty easy. The stance doesn't directly affect the ball flight. It indirectly affect it because we usually swing at some angle relative to our stance, but you don't swing the club with your feet. Two things determine the ball flight, swing path and clubface angle. You can stand on one leg or backwards if you want, the ball doesn't care. It's like throwing a baseball. You can throw it in any direction you want regardless of where the feet point.

[iacas]

BTW, let me add this...

If you want to see people fading the ball with a closed stance, go to any range.

A good percentage of the hackers out there will aim way right, then try to pull the ball left with their swing path. We all know what happens then...

[CalBoomer]

Although it's possible, it doesn't make much sense to me to try hitting a pull fade from a closed stance. Hitting a push fade from an open stance is easier and probably more reliable for most people.

This is Lee Trevino's method for fading the ball (From Golf Magazine, 1979):

YOU CAN LEARN TO HIT MY FADE
Here is a simple method that will help you develop an accurate left-to-right shot
By LEE TREVINO

“There are probably as many different ways to draw and fade the ball, as there are tacos in Mexico I'm sure you've heard about many of them. Strong and weak grips. Opened and closed clubfaces. Inside and outside takeaways. Early and late releases. Light and tight grip pressures. But most of these methods are unreliable, particularly when you try to mix them up in your golf game.

My theory is that you should have one favorite shot, either a fade or a draw, and use it almost all the time. I favor the fade. But not an ordinary fade, with an open clubface or weak grip or outside to inside swing. Those types are too fickle. One mistake in timing, one miscalculation and the fade you expected can become a blue dart into the left trees. No, I have my own technique, unlike anything you've heard of before. It has worked for me, and it can work for you. Even if you are a slicer, my technique will help you control your slice, and as a bonus, help you hit a draw, as well.

I almost always "push" the ball. That's the easy way to think of my fade, as a push/fade to the target. Very little can go wrong: Your wrists can't roll over and surprise you with a snap hook. You don't have to worry about releasing early or late, because, in effect, you don't release at all. And you don't need to fret about a "double cross" aiming left and hitting farther left by mistake. With my method, the ball drifts to the right every time.

To begin, make sure your shoulders, hips and feet line up to the left of your intended target with the shoulders slightly less open than the hips and feet. Aim the clubface at the target, open to your body alignment.
Play the ball about one to two inches inside your left heel and start the club back along the target line. This will put the club on an inside path in relation to your body.

On the forward swing, shift your hips laterally toward the target and swing the club down on the target line, holding your release and keeping the clubhead on the target line well after impact. You should have the feeling of swinging very much inside-to-outside and in fact, you are.

"Inside out?" you might ask. "Doesn't that cause a draw?" Yes, it does, but only when your swing is inside out in relation to your target line. This swing is inside out in relation to the body alignment, but straight back to straight through in relation to the target line (see illustration). You won't draw the ball with this swing. If anything, you will contact the ball after the club has swung down and back to, the inside on the forward swing, thus putting a slight left to right spin on the ball .

So you have two big pluses here: First, you have an inside to outside attack in relation to your body. This is much more powerful than the outside-to inside swings that many amateurs use to fade the ball. Second, you have the club moving down the target line, producing either a straight ball or slight fade. You can't beat that combination.

Here's a trick that might help you understand this a little better. After you set up, imagine that there are three golf balls in front of the one you're about to hit (see illustration). For the fade, you want to hit through all four balls. This will force your right shoulder down rather than around on the downswing, with your arms extending toward the target on the follow through. Keep in mind that the right shoulder doesn't dip. That would cause fat shots. Instead, the shoulder simply swivels underneath the chin. As a result, you will hold your release, keep the club moving down the target line, and push the ball to the hole, with very little sidespin.

I have, however, encountered one "problem" among people who have tried this method. They say to me, "Lee, when I swing your way, I hit the ball way to the right. I just tell them, "Aim farther left.” Don't open your stance more; just shift your entire orientation to the left. In other words, rather than aim the clubface down the fairway or at the pin, aim it at an intermediate target more to the left and shift your body alignment farther to the left as well. There's no rule that says you have to aim down the middle. Line up for the trees on the left and push it down the fairway. It's easy, when you know for sure that you can hit the push/fade.

The beauty of the balls in a line image is that you can use it to draw the ball, too. For the right to left shot, line up your body parallel to the target line and aim your clubface at an intermediate target to the right, to allow for the draw. Then, simply think of picking off the first ball in line, the real ball, without touching the three imaginary ones. This brings the right shoulder and club up quickly in the follow through, and whenever the club and shoulder move up, they go counterclockwise as well, which closes the clubface. Result: a draw.

Try my method. You'll see how easy it is to fade and draw the ball. You'll always know where the ball is going. And in golf, there's no substitute for accuracy. I can vouch for that.

A key to hitting consistent, solid fades is to keep the right shoulder moving down under the chin through impact.”

Golf Mag, 12/79

[HogansSecrets]

Thank you for all the posts!

Now with all that knowledge I would like to ask a more detailed follow up question:

With a closed stance ( operational definition of this closed stance is the relativity of the feet to one another; the right foot is perpendicular to the target line and also parallel left of it and therefore also aiming parallel left of the flag, the right foot is back of the left foot and the left foot is open from parallel the right foot.

The toe line direction (stick touching the toes pionts) faces right of where the right foot is aimed.

Applying an inside takaway and returning it on the inside on the downswing with the club slightly open what might be more desirable: bringing the club to the inside onthe follow through, or on the outside ( and playing for the push fade )

If playing for that push fade I am assuming that a reorientation left with these same standards is applicable,

Thoughts please- much appreciated

[CalBoomer]

I have tried to hit a push fade with both a closed stance and an open stance. For me, I can hit it much more reliably with an open stance. And I think there is a good reason for that. When you hit the ball with a closed stance, the ball is contacted somewhat later in the swing, when the club face is more likely to be closing, making a reliable push hard to achieve. On the other hand, with an open stance, the ball is contacted somewhat earlier in the swing, when the club face is more likely to be slightly open, which facilitates a reliable push. Just my $.02.

[Steel]

For me I like to keep my stance square, i just move the ball position slightly and use basically the same swing, ball 2-3 inches back of the front heal and I tend to push the ball with a slight fade.  ball even with the front heal and I hit it straight or with a slight draw.  I find if the ball is slightly back in the stance I don't quite square up the face and thus the push/fade occurs.  Works for me give it a try

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

I have tried to hit a push fade with both a closed stance and an open stance.

By definition, a push-fade with a stance lined up right of the target (for a righty) would be a really, really bad shot... so did you mean what you typed?

[bunkerputt]

Man.  That guy is freaking brilliant.  I particularly love the part about the hips open and shoulders less open comment at address.  I was playing that shot all day and didn't know it.  It was so easy to strike the ball purely. with that little bit of rotation pre-set between the two.  My lower back also hurt all last week and was a little tender today.  Usually golf wreaks havoc, but opening the hips at address actually made it feel better as the round went on.  Weird....  I think I'm onto something though.  Not hitting it a mile, but every shot is pure and controlled with a nice low slight push-fade trajectory and my back feels really great.  Now I'll just have to mess with it and switch back to S300s in my irons .

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

This is Lee Trevino's method for fading the ball (From Golf Magazine, 1979):

YOU CAN LEARN TO HIT MY FADE

Here is a simple method that will help you develop an accurate left-to-right shot

By LEE TREVINO

“There are probably as many different ways to draw and fade the ball, as there are tacos in Mexico I'm sure you've heard about many of them. Strong and ......

[CalBoomer]

Originally Posted by iacas

By definition, a push-fade with a stance lined up right of the target (for a righty) would be a really, really bad shot... so did you mean what you typed?

Sorry to be late in responding to this, but I have been doing a bit of skiing. Yes, I did mean what I said. I used to play with a closed stance, and my ball flight ranged from draw to bad hook. So I decided to try to develop a fade to control/prevent the hook. I began by just opening up the club face and aiming left, but that wasn't a very reliable method. Using the Trevino method was a revelation, and my driving is much more consistent, in terms of ball flight and accuracy. I am 67 and cannot muster more than a 3/4 backswing. Now that I use this method consistently, I am typically driving about 230-250 with an occasional non-wind aided 270. I now outdrive almost everybody my age and a lot of people younger. And my back doesn't bother me at all.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CalBoomer

Sorry to be late in responding to this, but I have been doing a bit of skiing. Yes, I did mean what I said. I used to play with a closed stance, and my ball flight ranged from draw to bad hook. So I decided to try to develop a fade to control/prevent the hook. I began by just opening up the club face and aiming left, but that wasn't a very reliable method. Using the Trevino method was a revelation, and my driving is much more consistent, in terms of ball flight and accuracy. I am 67 and cannot muster more than a 3/4 backswing. Now that I use this method consistently, I am typically driving about 230-250 with an occasional non-wind aided 270. I now outdrive almost everybody my age and a lot of people younger. And my back doesn't bother me at all.

You're missing something, I think... Lee lined up way LEFT and played a push fade.

[CalBoomer]

Guess I'm having trouble communicating. Now, I do aim (stance line) way left, shoulder line a little less left, and hit a push fade. Just as Trevino suggests. It works really well for me.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I have no doubt that this Trevino thing works, but it sounds like a recipe for a bad back down the road.

Like a pitcher throwing too many breaking balls ruins his arm early.

Just my impression, though.