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Stack and Tilt's Future


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Originally Posted by uttexas

We are already seeing the future of "S&T;".  The principals of "stack and tilt" are being assimilated by other PGA professionals.  The swings on tour over the past couple of years have been more centered with less of a dramatic weight shift onto the rear leg.  With a few exceptions (Ryan Moore, etc) backswings are getting less steep, I'm seeing more "one plane" swings.


Isn't S & T based on what tour pros do? So is it a surprise that you see Tour Pro using the elements? It is like a restaurant putting fishing and chips on the menu because people like them and then say people like fish and chips because it on their menu.

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Originally Posted by 2bGood

Isn't S & T based on what tour pros do?

It's based on a lot of things. Some of it is what expert players have always done, but there's always been more emphasis on what older pros did than what pros did post-Nicklaus. Suffice to say that the late 80s, 90s, and early 00s saw a shift away from some of the basic S&T; stuff, and now we're seeing a return to a more centered shoulder turn, allowing the hips to turn, and a few other things.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Awww crap. I hosted a radio talk show in college! It's all been downhill since then! :-)



Now THAT explains a lot!!

Actually I'm being serious as well as facetious.  I suspect that some of the skills you learned then have translated nicely into forum management as well as golf instruction.  Such is life.

As to the journalism profession, it is being steadily degraded for obvious commercial reasons.  There are still some writers of integrity and skill of course, but there are fewer of them and fewer reading their work product.  This is a major problem in society - but I digress.

I'd try S&T; myself but I fear returning to the dreaded reverse pivot, a tendency that may still be lurking in my nervous system.  Perhaps this is an unreasonable fear, since I'm very aware of the issue.  Also I own a nice video camera, which has never lied to me about my swing.

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Originally Posted by Chas

Now THAT explains a lot!!

Actually I'm being serious as well as facetious.  I suspect that some of the skills you learned then have translated nicely into forum management as well as golf instruction.  Such is life.

As to the journalism profession, it is being steadily degraded for obvious commercial reasons.  There are still some writers of integrity and skill of course, but there are fewer of them and fewer reading their work product.  This is a major problem in society - but I digress.

One could use the same analogy 2bgood used regarding fish n' chips on the menu. Is the average citizen less well read because journalism has been dumbed down in recent years or is journalism being dumbed down to suit average North American. And yes, I'm lumping Canadians in there too.

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By saying S&T; doesn't work, people are essentially saying Ben Hogan's swing didn't work. Hogan got the deep hands, one-plane swing, centered backswing and big hip slide. Hogan said he did some things that he didn't really do, which probably adds some confusion for people.

It is tragic how the S&T; pattern has been dismissed as a bad cold in the golf media. It really shows how many so-called experts don't really know what they are talking about. I don't mind critic thinking and questioning golf philosophies, but in the case of S&T;, they aren't even giving it a fighting chance. Most of the criticism thrown at S&T; is based on false facts.

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Originally Posted by Zeph

By saying S&T; doesn't work, people are essentially saying Ben Hogan's swing didn't work. Hogan got the deep hands, one-plane swing, centered backswing and big hip slide. Hogan said he did some things that he didn't really do, which probably adds some confusion for people.

It is tragic how the S&T; pattern has been dismissed as a bad cold in the golf media. It really shows how many so-called experts don't really know what they are talking about. I don't mind critic thinking and questioning golf philosophies, but in the case of S&T;, they aren't even giving it a fighting chance. Most of the criticism thrown at S&T; is based on false facts.


You got give the S & T folks some of the fault here. They have not marketed the swing as a "modern look at Ben Hogan 5 lessons", they have called it a "Revolutionary golf swing", they proudly display the quote "...contradicts almost everything being taught in the game today."  S & T's own marketing is based on 'false facts', what they are teaching isn't new and revolutionary, what they are teaching is an older style of swinging that they are presenting in a new way, S & T does contradict almost everything being taught, it has far more in common with good patterns then it does contradict them.

I still go back to assertion that there is nothing wrong with S & T as a pattern, it is just the marketing that has caused the push back. I don't even think there is anything wrong with the marketing/branding, it is done a great job of getting buzz about the swing and making A & P money,but it is easy to see why many people are turned off by it and by extension write off the pattern (at their own loss).

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Originally Posted by Zeph

By saying S&T; doesn't work, people are essentially saying Ben Hogan's swing didn't work. Hogan got the deep hands, one-plane swing, centered backswing and big hip slide. Hogan said he did some things that he didn't really do, which probably adds some confusion for people.

I'm the first to say Ben Hogan did a lot of the pieces of S&T; - I even compared his P4 to Badds "overdone" (and they were) photos from Golf Digest to illustrate some things, but... let's not go too far. Hogan was Hogan... let's leave it at that and let me be clear: Hogan is not the model for S&T; and Hogan didn't do everything 100% dead within the middle of the ranges we have.

Originally Posted by 2bGood

You got give the S & T folks some of the fault here.

Who are those people? Am I one of them? I've never had any real input into how the thing is marketed.



Originally Posted by 2bGood

they have called it a "Revolutionary golf swing", they proudly display the quote "...contradicts almost everything being taught in the game today." S & T's own marketing is based on 'false facts', what they are teaching isn't new and revolutionary, what they are teaching is an older style of swinging that they are presenting in a new way, S & T does contradict almost everything being taught, it has far more in common with good patterns then it does contradict them.

Let me ask you a question: how much input do you think Bennett and Plummer have had in how their swing is marketed?

Do you think they'd have the success they've had if they'd chosen to market it another way? If not, do you think they'd have more or less?

It's a hypothetical, yes, and I have my own answers, but I'm curious what you'd say.


Originally Posted by 2bGood

I still go back to assertion that there is nothing wrong with S & T as a pattern, it is just the marketing that has caused the push back. I don't even think there is anything wrong with the marketing/branding, it is done a great job of getting buzz about the swing and making A & P money,but it is easy to see why many people are turned off by it and be extension write off the pattern.

Final question: do you think that's "good journalism" to do what you suggest is easy to do?

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I doubt S&T; would've made as big an impact had it been advertised as a traditional swing. The fact that the pattern is still around says something, not to speak about M&A; teaching lots of professionals and being one of the top 3/5 (IIRC) instructors on tour by the players some time ago. Lots of swing philosophies out there don't even make Golf Digest. All PR is good PR.

Of course they don't teach the entire pattern to everyone. They use their knowledge to help players out, most of the time using geometry and physics to explain why and how. It is in my view a solid and valid swing pattern, it deserve at least some recognition.

There is no one solution to things, you can play golf like Bubba Watson or Charlie Wi, but it would be nice if S&T; got more positive media coverage. What annoys me the most is complaints not based on facts.

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I would say the the ideas of S and T are growing...and probably quite rapidly.

1) The best and most notible player in the world is using a very S and T ish swing.  Do you think other tour pros notice the things that tiger does?  Do you thing amateur golfers notice the things that tiger does.  And also with sean foley gaining more popularity... he is teaching something that is pretty close to S and T, but isnt calling it S and T.  If you start to follow Foley...then where does the next step lead to?

2) Teachers such as foley, who teach similar things are taking more and more students away from the conventional ideas of the swing and ballflight tendencies.

3) When people want to get better at golf, what do they do nowadays?  they look on the internet.  And S and T has a huge presence on the net.  the sandtrap is the first thing that comes up when you type "golf forum" into google if i remember correctly.  It also translates well to a lot of people who tend to be more electronically inclined.  The way it seems to be marketed has a certain magic bullet quality to it which translates well to these kinds of people.

So I would say that the ideas of S and T are growing pretty quickly with a lot of people not really knowing it.   the brand of S and T is still so polarizing that it still has more of a cult following.  it is just yet to be understood by the conventional golf world because they just see the comercials and the "revolutionary" aspects of it and not the actual ideas behind it.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Who are those people? Am I one of them? I've never had any real input into how the thing is marketed.

Not that I know of. As far as I am aware you have nothing to do with AM Golf Associates .

Originally Posted by iacas

Let me ask you a question: how much input do you think Bennett and Plummer have had in how their swing is marketed?

S & T is registered to AM Golf Associates, Mike Bennett is the legal principal of the company. On paper it it would appear Bennett has final say on how S & T is marketed. Does he exercise his right? I have no clue. As this is about what 'I think' not about fact, my assumption is that Bennett does have final sign off and as much input as he chooses. The company may be set up in different way then what appears on paper and the may have some agreements I know nothing about.

Originally Posted by iacas

Do you think they'd have the success they've had if they'd chosen to market it another way? If not, do you think they'd have more or less?

I am not sure what their goals are and what they defined as success. If making money was their goal, then no I think they would have made less money. If the goal was to get the swing known, again I think they would have been less successful. If the goal was for the swing to be accepted by more of the mainstream golf community, again I think they have done a good job of this. If the goal was to alienate the least amount of people (or the smallest percentage of people) then yes they could have done this better, but at only at a cost of less people knowing about their swing in total (ie different marketing approach = 500 support swing, 50 (10%) push back, actual approach = 1000 support swing, 250 (25%) push back.

Originally Posted by iacas

Final question: do you think that's "good journalism" to do what you suggest is easy to do?

I am already dumb enough to get into the stack and tilt debate, I am not going to jump into the "what is good journalism" debate. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to make that call. Do I think the article the OP linked to is any good? Not really.

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Since switching back to his old coach, Baddeley seems to be reaping these benefits. One of the things that is clearly evident is he is hitting more greens with all clubs. Currently, Baddeley is 11th on the PGA TOUR in greens in regulation, which is miles better than where has been over the last few years. When you look at this stat further, Baddeley is beginning to show more confidence with his long game where he seems to be in more control of his fairway woods and long irons into greens. With Baddeley not being that long off the tee, his ability to control the long game is critical.

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If a picture is worth a thousand words, how many in a couple of videos?  Lets take a look at the two finalists in the WGC Match Play.  Admittedly, Kaymer is significantly closer to the "S&T;" model, while Donald is more 60/40 rear foot biased at address, but both swings exhibit a steep,circular shoulder turn around a centralish pivot.  Both players (Donald does a great job) keep right arm connected to torso, slide their hips forward, and jump (push off the ground) into impact.

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Seems like a pretty standard backswing.

Donald%20posture.jpg Luke%20Donald%20Diary.jpg&size=603

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Originally Posted by uttexas

If a picture is worth a thousand words, how many in a couple of videos?  Lets take a look at the two finalists in the WGC Match Play.  Admittedly, Kaymer is significantly closer to the "S&T;" model, while Donald is more 60/40 rear foot biased at address, but both swings exhibit a steep,circular shoulder turn around a centralish pivot.  Both players (Donald does a great job) keep right arm connected to torso, slide their hips forward, and jump (push off the ground) into impact.



or put another way, how golfers have been playing for the last 100 years

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Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

or put another way, how golfers have been playing for the last 100 years


Exactly, except for say, mid eighty's until recently when many tour pros had a dramatic weight shift to the rear leg, flatter shoulder turns, and lifted the club up and their right arms off their torso at the top of the backswing.

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Originally Posted by 2bGood

On paper it it would appear Bennett has final say on how S & T is marketed. Does he exercise his right? I have no clue. As this is about what 'I think' not about fact, my assumption is that Bennett does have final sign off and as much input as he chooses.

Without going into it too much, just consider that Medicus is primarily responsible for the DVDs and the publisher has a bunch, bunch more to do with marketing the book than Bennett/Plummer. Mike and Andy just want to teach golfers... they've never - for better or worse - done much with the business or marketing side of things.

The rest of your comments... fair enough. I'd tend to agree, and will leave it at that.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Since switching back to his old coach, Baddeley seems to be reaping these benefits.

Was he also reaping the benefits when he MCed this week? As I've said Badds is a talented guy and can win - and now has won - with two or three different swings. Good for him. But it's a stretch at best to then claim that it's a nail in the coffin of S&T;, and I think that's the point others are trying to make in responding to this article.

Originally Posted by uttexas

Exactly, except for say, mid eighty's until recently when many tour pros had a dramatic weight shift to the rear leg, flatter shoulder turns, and lifted the club up and their right arms off their torso at the top of the backswing.

Yeah.

And hey, PGA Tour pros have always done things and said otherwise. The biggest change is not needed on the PGA Tour. Those guys are really talented and can win doing virtually any golf swing. No, the biggest problem is with average golfers, who listen to what PGA Tour pros say about "loading into their right side" or "releasing the club" or "getting behind the ball to hit a draw" or whatever (even though in the mid-80s the pros weren't doing these things too much)... so they hear these things, and then stay lousy, and need the help the most.

So PGA Tour players, eh, I'm not super interested in them. They're good examples - sometimes - but last time I checked they are pretty good. The average golfer, not so much. S&T; has a future on the PGA Tour - that seems obvious to me - but the part I care about is its future with average golfers, and the upside there is huge.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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On the surface that seems like a pretty smart move, Medicus does a good job of selling . Period. It also makes a tonne of sense to me now as the S & T marketing sure does have the Medicus touch (both bad and good). Thanks, I find this information very helpful.

Originally Posted by iacas

Without going into it too much, just consider that Medicus is primarily responsible for the DVDs and the publisher has a bunch, bunch more to do with marketing the book than Bennett/Plummer. Mike and Andy just want to teach golfers... they've never - for better or worse - done much with the business or marketing side of things.

Driver R7 Superquad NV 55 shaft or Bridgestone J33 460 NV 75 shaft
3 and 5 Wood X
Hybrid original Fli Hi 21* or FT 22*
Irons AP2
Wedges Vokey 52* - 8 , 56* 14, 60*-7Putter California CoranodoBall TP RedGPS NeoRange Finder- Bushnell Tour V2 When Chuck Norris puts spin on the ball, the ball does not...
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Originally Posted by uttexas

Exactly, except for say, mid eighty's until recently when many tour pros had a dramatic weight shift to the rear leg, flatter shoulder turns, and lifted the club up and their right arms off their torso at the top of the backswing.



Although some of the pga players and teachers like Leadbetter believe in different fundamentals (loading the right side etc.) they know how to make them work.  I personally like the feeling of loading the right side (mostly with the driver) but like DL says in the video you can't just spring off the right side you have to wait (this is key).  Angel Cabrera is a great example of a player who loads the right side and hangs back during the early stages of the downswing (there are many other examples too, Bubba Watson comes to mind).

Oops, I'm off topic.

I believe S&T; Rev. 1 is dead.  No more reverse pivot transistioning into a reverse-C.  S&T; Rev. 2 is alive and doing well.  Rev. 3 will replace the hip slide with a knee slide (oh wait, that is Foley's swing).  I kid...I kid...

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