Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern

[LuciusWooding]

You add loft without adding spin by hitting up on the ball, not by increasing the loft built in.

You are blurring the definitions here. Static loft is what's "built in", dynamic loft is what is presented to the ball and can be affected by body tilt, ball position, where you hit it on the face, and how the shaft lines up with your lead arm, etc. AoA is totally different, that's the path of the clubhead in vertical terms. Finally, spinloft is dynamic loft minus AoA.

A positive AOA will only reduce your spin if you have a lower spinloft. The best way to optimize your spinloft without launching too low is to hit up, and the only way to do both while swinging on plane is by using the setup described in the OP. The SLDR is kinda off topic and it has absolutely nothing to do with that fact, all it does is give many people good launch conditions.

You could be hitting down a lot and still be adding loft with your technique, and vice versa. This is why static loft on a driver can be completely irrelevant if you don't use the right technique. The fact that I could still hit a 7.5˚ driver very high does not mean 12˚ is too much loft for me; in fact I will almost certainly go to 10+ degrees on my next driver regardless of the brand because I can make a more correct swing with it and I'm no longer afraid of launching the ball low.

[Wangus94]

You are blurring the definitions here. Static loft is what's "built in", dynamic loft is what is presented to the ball and can be affected by body tilt, ball position, where you hit it on the face, and how the shaft lines up with your lead arm, etc. AoA is totally different, that's the path of the clubhead in vertical terms. Finally, spinloft is dynamic loft minus AoA. A positive AOA will only reduce your spin if you have a lower spinloft. The best way to optimize your spinloft without launching too low is to hit up, and the only way to do both while swinging on plane is by using the setup described in the OP. The SLDR is kinda off topic and it has absolutely nothing to do with that fact, all it does is give many people good launch conditions.  You could be hitting down a lot and still be adding loft with your technique, and vice versa. This is why static loft on a driver can be completely irrelevant if you don't use the right technique. The fact that I could still hit a 7.5˚ driver very high does not mean 12˚ is too much loft for me; in fact I will almost certainly go to 10+ degrees on my next driver regardless of the brand because I can make a more correct swing with it and I'm no longer afraid of launching the ball low.

The SLDR comment is completely relevant cuz he wasn't talking about attack angle at all... he was just talking about lofting up. I'm saying exactly the same thing you are accept if you just add loft ie 'loft up' without any swing change the ball will obviously launch higher but will have more spin. That Saevel guy was saying that by moving the center of gravity low and forward that will reduce the spin regardless of attack and I was saying that it wasn't the case for me .. my spin was the same with same swing as any other driver. I'm hooked up with world class Trackman instruction so I'm familiar with all the terms you put out there:) if you hit a 7.5 driver high why would you go up to 12. I don't understand how the amount of loft built into the club has any impact on how you swing. It's nt like adding loft promotes hitting up more? Or taking it away makes you steeper?

[saevel25]

The SLDR comment is completely relevant cuz he wasn't talking about attack angle at all... he was just talking about lofting up. I'm saying exactly the same thing you are accept if you just add loft ie 'loft up' without any swing change the ball will obviously launch higher but will have more spin. That Saevel guy was saying that by moving the center of gravity low and forward that will reduce the spin regardless of attack and I was saying that it wasn't the case for me .. my spin was the same with same swing as any other driver. I'm hooked up with world class Trackman instruction so I'm familiar with all the terms you put out there:) if you hit a 7.5 driver high why would you go up to 12. I don't understand how the amount of loft built into the club has any impact on how you swing. It's nt like adding loft promotes hitting up more? Or taking it away makes you steeper?

Then you were doing something different with each club. Because moving the COG forward and down will reduce spin. Now if you change your swing because the club feels different, that is a you thing, and DOES NOT discredit the science behind how the SLDR reduces spin. The fact is that taking everything else EQUAL the SLDR will spin less and launch higher because the COG is lower and forward. This is why lofting up works, because if you kept the same degree of loft then you would be producing too little spin.

Because you are probably not hitting 7.5 high. If you are then you are hitting way too down on the ball and producing too much spin that causes it to go high. If not, then you need like +10 attack angle to hit a driver too high at 7.5.

The loft built in, or more importantly the loft of the club delivered at impact will help determine launch angle. If you take a guy who is launching at 12 degrees, with 3500 rpm. If you get him to hit up, he might get it to 14 degrees and 2500 rpm. If you give him a driver with a low-forward CG, and get so his dynamic loft compared to his current driver is 2 degrees more, he will probably get near 16-17 degrees of launch with 2000-2100 rpm.

With the SLDR you can add more dynamic loft and still lower spin because the vertical gear effect is so great it counters the spin added due to lofting up. Think about the big picture.

[LuciusWooding]

if you hit a 7.5 driver high why would you go up to 12. I don't understand how the amount of loft built into the club has any impact on how you swing. It's nt like adding loft promotes hitting up more? Or taking it away makes you steeper?

I swing the higher lofted drivers with a more on plane swing. Either I tend to flip slightly, open the club too much, or keep my weight back too much as compensations in order to hit the 7.5 properly.

Though I can certainly justify the launch conditions I was getting on good shots, since I could still hit it far and generate a relatively high flight, it was very difficult to consistently hit well because it was very unlike the driver swing. The dynamic loft could be about the same between the 7.5˚ and 9.5˚ or more, but the handle is leaning at different angles in that case so it can be a fitting problem. Though I can compensate to hit the 7.5 and hit it well, in fact my longest drive was with that loft, but it makes more sense for me to hit up with more shaft lean that cancels out the extra loft. At least that's my understanding.

[Wangus94]

Then you were doing something different with each club. Because moving the COG forward and down will reduce spin. Now if you change your swing because the club feels different, that is a you thing, and DOES NOT discredit the science behind how the SLDR reduces spin. The fact is that taking everything else EQUAL the SLDR will spin less and launch higher because the COG is lower and forward. This is why lofting up works, because if you kept the same degree of loft then you would be producing too little spin.  Because you are probably not hitting 7.5 high. If you are then you are hitting way too down on the ball and producing too much spin that causes it to go high. If not, then you need like +10 attack angle to hit a driver too high at 7.5.  The loft built in, or more importantly the loft of the club delivered at impact will help determine launch angle. If you take a guy who is launching at 12 degrees, with 3500 rpm. If you get him to hit up, he might get it to 14 degrees and 2500 rpm. If you give him a driver with a low-forward CG, and get so his dynamic loft compared to his current driver is 2 degrees more, he will probably get near 16-17 degrees of launch with 2000-2100 rpm.  With the SLDR you can add more dynamic loft and still lower spin because the vertical gear effect is so great it counters the spin added due to lofting up. Think about the big picture.

17 launch with 2000 spin... lol... buddy I hit a SLDR and didn't get remotely close to that hahaha. What a comedian... that's all marketing BS chief, no moon ball knuckles gonna happen cuz TM tells you so.

[saevel25]

17 launch with 2000 spin... lol... buddy I hit a SLDR and didn't get remotely close to that hahaha. What a comedian... that's all marketing BS chief, no moon ball knuckles gonna happen cuz TM tells you so.

Then the driver didn't fit you. Doesn't mean the science is wrong because you are not able to achieve claims. Just means you were not able to achieve them.

[mvmac]

17 launch with 2000 spin... lol... buddy I hit a SLDR and didn't get remotely close to that hahaha. What a comedian... that's all marketing BS chief, no moon ball knuckles gonna happen cuz TM tells you so.

I think all TaylorMade is doing, and most golf companies in general, is highlighting the important of high launch low spin and how every golfer can benefit from it. Here are the numbers when I hit the SLDR S on FlightScope, 10 degree head, 1900 spin with a launch of 15 degree. I can get in the ball park to that with my other drivers as well, hitting up a couple degrees helps

[jamo]

17 launch with 2000 spin... lol... buddy I hit a SLDR and didn't get remotely close to that hahaha. What a comedian... that's all marketing BS chief, no moon ball knuckles gonna happen cuz TM tells you so.

Just means you need to find a shaft and loft setting to get you there.

[Wangus94]

I must have too much speed I guess ...lol.,Weird:-P you'd think the tour guys would getting those numbers if it was so easily attainable. I was also told the center of gravity is all over the place in drivers and much smaller than people realize. Hard to believe a mass-produced product has such tight tolerances and QC to control exactly where the center of gravity is on the face . I demo'd that club and there were no obvious noticeable differences ... my Trackman numbers weren't radically different either. I think the real motivation by TM is to push more product by being to claim their product goes further than the next OEMs... The typical chop is distance obsessed anyway and the marketing guys know this. Business 101.

[iacas]

Time for this thread to get back to the topic.

[trickyputt]

Well that was 6 days ago. Where is it?

[Wangus94]

What is the topic anyway? Hitting up and swinging from the inside? Sounds just like my slider hooks lol

[mvmac]

Well that was 6 days ago. Where is it?

Were you responding to someone?

What is the topic anyway? Hitting up and swinging from the inside? Sounds just like my slider hooks lol

The topic is pretty clear. It's also clear your mind is made up so if you don't like the thread stop posting. Continuing to be obtuse for sake of being rude will get you restricted from the thread.

[trickyputt]

Yes I was. The OP who posted prior to my post. Should we quote in each post for clarity? I would like to read about the the absolute limits of driver speed and swing arcs produces a slight fade and how that distance compares to the roll out of a draw which is obviously not produced the same way. And frankly, clarity is not easy. Verbose and woody descriptions are challenging for us simple folk. By the time I get through all the posts it quits?

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickyputt

Yes I was. The OP who posted prior to my post. Should we quote in each post for clarity?

Yes that would be great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickyputt


I would like to read about the the absolute limits of driver speed and swing arcs produces a slight fade and how that distance compares to the roll out of a draw which is obviously not produced the same way.

That will differ from player to player. Some players might hit a fade further, some might hit a draw further. Rather than be concerned about roll out, the focus should be more about achieving your m ax carry (high launch, low spin) which usually results in a good amount of roll.

As @iacas said in an earlier post

Quote:

You almost never find a way to hit a ball farther overall due to increasing the roll.

And if you are within a few yards, even if Max Carry + a little roll is shorter, it's almost always still the better option because you can CARRY more things like water, bunkers, rough, etc.

[trickyputt]

I will aim at an impediment to curve a ball away from it, though having no bailout is sometimes punishing. I will play irons and hybrids with a +10/-10yard bias from draw to fade. I have never challenged impediments in the fairway from the tee, because they arent there mostly,save rough carries prior to the start of the fairway. I will fade or draw corners on doglegs. This talk of one best shot from driver is kinda limiting on the course, but it is interesting as a theoretical limit type thing. I am going try to disprove the usefulness of @iacas idea, as I play the draw because it goes further than a fade for me right now. However I dont play the ball at the limits of the driver swing historically for consistency reasons. A couple of clunkers from the tee can cost me doubles real easy. I do want my drive as high as as possible, and two or three times the height of the oak trees we have here is pretty good for carry anyway. I am glad I bought an R1 so my backspin can be controlled more than with my xhot. I can get that rising flight that comes from hitting through the ball, and I understand that is a lot of backspin.

[iacas]

This talk of one best shot from driver is kinda limiting on the course, but it is interesting as a theoretical limit type thing.

It's how the game's best players play. They hit their stock shot 95%+ of the time. If they need to shape their tee shots, many will hit a club other than their driver (Chris DiMarco pointed out in his Playing Lessons on Golf Channel that he can't reliably draw his driver, so if he needs to hit a draw, he hits his 3W).

Very, very few pros curve the ball with any club opposite their normal shape more than 10% of the non-trouble-shot/specialty-shot times (i.e. 13 at Augusta National is a specialty shot).

I am going try to disprove the usefulness of @iacas idea, as I play the draw because it goes further than a fade for me right now.

It goes farther for you because you likely deliver less loft when you hit a draw. I can easily make the case that a pull-fade goes farther than a push-draw. You likely hit something close to a straight-fade and pull-draws.

[Lihu]

Although my driver might be the subject of ridicule (A Ping G15 modified with a steel shaft DG X100 with 44gm of weight near the heel), the loft up concept really works well.

I swing slower and with a lot more launch with a 3" from the ground tee height (3.5" tee), and the ball really goes high and far. Then I can see tons of bounce even with range balls. I can honestly say that I added 10-15 yards (range balls) with the increased launch. My ability to launch higher is due to the club modifications I made that allow me to swing more naturally.