Tommy Gainey-Bubba- and Ray Romano- Golf instruction is lousy!!!

[nleary9201]

Just watch the swing of my new favorite golfer, Tommy Gainey. It has been described as a guy killing a snake with a shovel.  How about the unothodox swing of the tours longest hitter Bubba Watson.  He has amazing success with his swing. One of the worlds greatest teachers, Hank Haney can't make a big improvement in Ray Romano's scores.

In every other sport I have been involved in there has been basically one way to play the sport.  If you ask 100 baseball coaches how to field a ground ball I think you will get the same basic answer from about 95 of them.  Ask 100 basketball coaches how to shoot a foul shot and I think you  will get the same answer from 99 of them. It is consistant throughtout the sport.

Golf it seems, is a different story.  Sean Foley is the latest "guru".  Hmmmmmm. What is the long term data on how much he has helped his students.  Golf seems to have such a closed minded attitude about its teaching processes.  We have equipment that is so much better etc. but average scores aren't much better.  You would think if something doesn't work, you would try something different.

Example 1 - No teacher has ever been able to explain merits of the "proper" grip to me. Why wouldn't baseball players use the overlap or interlock if it was such a great thing.  Maybe because fundamentally it just doesn't make sense.  I think because the great players of the past used it, we feel like we have to use it. What if Jack Nicklaus would have used a baseball grip and had similar success. We would all be using that grip. All it would take is some independent scientific testing. Which grip is best, figure it out and teach only that grip.  Golf isn't a "magical" game that is so complex that everyone needs to find which way is right for them.  It is an athletic sport like all the other sports and there needs to be a single, consistant teaching approach. Guys could shoot scores in the 60's in the 1930's with hickoy shafts and gutta balls. Come on PGA, figure it out.

Example 2 -  Whats with the "honor" system of having the tee after you won the previous hole.  You are "required" by rule to hit first.  This seems like a crazy, stupid rule to me. The theory of, I want to hit first because I can put pressure on my opponent with a good shot doesn't hold water.  Was watching the Accenture Match play yesterday and they showed a stat for Kaymer.  The #1 player in "THE ENTIRE WORLD" was only hitting 64 per cent of greens in regulation.  So when we average players think we are going to put the pressure on most of the time, --well good luck.  It "honor" should be the "option" to hit in whatever order you want.  Ever play a new course you haven't even seen before.  You stand on the tee of a 180 yd par 3 that looks like its only 160, but with the wind it might play 200?  I want to hit last, too see how my opponents ball reacts to the wind, yardage etc. A perfect analgy might be the coin flip in a football game.  The team that wins the flip has the "option" to kick off or receive. Golf needs to get this one right too.

[bkoguy07]

I don't really agree.  Everyone shoots foul shots differently.  It's similar to golf in find what works for you.  Jim Furyk uses a double overlap grip because he tends to overuse one of his hands.  That works for him I can't do it.  There are many ways to properly strike a golf ball but oddly enough, the impact position is generally extremely consistent when analyzing a pro's swing.

[iacas]

Before I respond to some specifics, please know that I agree for the large part that:

a) instruction sucks a lot more time than it doesn't suck

b) the physics and geometry are the same regardless of the golfer, his location, which side he swings from, etc.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

In every other sport I have been involved in there has been basically one way to play the sport. If you ask 100 baseball coaches how to field a ground ball I think you will get the same basic answer from about 95 of them.  Ask 100 basketball coaches how to shoot a foul shot and I think you  will get the same answer from 99 of them. It is consistant throughtout the sport.

There are several schools of hitting out there, and unlike golf, direction is somewhat irrelevant. Not only can you hit the ball 45 degrees left or right of straight, but the bat is round, so it doesn't matter so much how much it's turned or where it's "facing." And golfers can hit "home runs" with their pitching wedges, so the distance in golf is that much greater.

And yet, even given those, there are again several schools of hitting out there. They have variations and different patterns for hitting a baseball. Some want a stride. Some want a step in place. Some are purely rotary.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Example 1 - No teacher has ever been able to explain merits of the "proper" grip to me. ... Which grip is best, figure it out and teach only that grip.  Golf isn't a "magical" game that is so complex that everyone needs to find which way is right for them. ... Guys could shoot scores in the 60's in the 1930's with hickoy shafts and gutta balls. Come on PGA, figure it out.

The proper grip is different for every person. Again, golf can't really be compared to baseball. Or a two-handed backhand in tennis for various reasons. You can't "figure out" a universal grip. Major championships have been won with grips of all kinds.

Golf is complex. Again, the angles and speeds and distances make it complex. The fact that there's almost no margin for error - the ball's sitting on the ground most of the time - make it difficult. That the terrain always changes. Conditions.

And guys in the 1930s were playing shorter, easier courses. They wouldn't be shooting in the 60s today.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Example 2 -  Whats with the "honor" system of having the tee after you won the previous hole. You are "required" by rule to hit first.

That's only absolutely true in match play and formal competitions (even in those you can change up the order if you have to hit the restroom and aren't doing so in order to gain an advantage). In those formal competitions, including the PGA Tour, you may want to hit, but you'll hit in the order in which you're supposed to hit.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

The theory of, I want to hit first because I can put pressure on my opponent with a good shot doesn't hold water.

What's your proof that it doesn't?

[Mr. Desmond]

Nice rant.

Agree -- a lot of bad golf instruction exists. And yes, there is more than one way to skin a cat in golf. At the same time, I'll post a disclaimer: Gainey and Watson are not models for normal golfers to pursue.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Just watch the swing of my new favorite golfer, Tommy Gainey. It has been described as a guy killing a snake with a shovel.  How about the unothodox swing of the tours longest hitter Bubba Watson.  He has amazing success with his swing. One of the worlds greatest teachers, Hank Haney can't make a big improvement in Ray Romano's scores.

In every other sport I have been involved in there has been basically one way to play the sport.  If you ask 100 baseball coaches how to field a ground ball I think you will get the same basic answer from about 95 of them.  Ask 100 basketball coaches how to shoot a foul shot and I think you  will get the same answer from 99 of them. It is consistant throughtout the sport.

Golf it seems, is a different story.  Sean Foley is the latest "guru".  Hmmmmmm. What is the long term data on how much he has helped his students.  Golf seems to have such a closed minded attitude about its teaching processes.  We have equipment that is so much better etc. but average scores aren't much better.  You would think if something doesn't work, you would try something different.

Like in the rules discussion, the comparisons to other sports are pointless. All basketball coaches might "teach" the same shooting motion, but they all allow for a huge amount of wiggle room, and everybody shoots differently.

Take the Celtics, for example. Ray Allen, statistically the greatest 3 point shooter of all time, takes a huge jump, lifts the ball straight over his head, and basically flicks it. He uses more left hand than almost everybody, but next to no one tries to copy him. Kevin Garnett pulls the ball way back behind his head and releases the ball very high. Paul Pierce sticks the ball directly in front of his face and almost pushes the ball towards the hoop, using much much more right hand than left. And then there's Rondo, who shoots the ball nearly exclusively from his right hand. All 4 are good (and 3 are even all-time great) shooters, and have strong fundamentals (balance, eyes, elbows, follow-through), but all have drastically different motions.

You can't compare the grip in baseball either, mostly because in baseball you have 90* of room to work with left or right, while in golf that wiggle room is only a couple degrees. The baseball grip is different because it can be, and because it's a totally different motion.

The baseball grip isn't universal either. Most players keep all 10 fingers on the bat, but Barry Bonds and Johnny Damon (among a lot of other lefties) don't even place their bottom pinkie finger on the bat, it's hooked under the knob. Look at Kevin Youkilis too. Before the pitch he holds his right hand way up on the barrel of the bat, and when the pitch comes he pulls it down, sometimes not all the way down. Occasionally he'll hit a ball with his hands apart.

Other sports aren't as cut and dry as you seem to think they are.

[Chief Broom]

I don't think there is as much differences in golf swings as appearances makes it seem.  What looks different is the wide variety in body shapes and sizes attempting to deliver regulation clubs to the ball.  Minor quibble though.

As to "honors" on the tee this is an old established custom.  So the benefit in going first is that by that simple gesture you know who is playing better.  In practice what you see is one person maintains honors and to take it from them requires exceptional play.  What I'd advise someone who doesn't want the honors on the tee is take your time getting ready and encourage someone else to go first.  I play with this one old guy who always insists on going last.  He's actually a pretty good golfer but he just has a superstition about teeing off last.  To each there own I guess, but as for me I love keeping the honor on the tee.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by Chief Broom

I don't think there is as much differences in golf swings as appearances makes it seem.  What looks different is the wide variety in body shapes and sizes attempting to deliver regulation clubs to the ball.  Minor quibble though.

I want to add that to my post too. Everybody has a different golf swing, but all great golf swings have some things in common. Just like everybody that I mentioned has a different shooting motion, but they all have some key fundamentals in common. And all baseball players are different, but they have a few keys things in common.

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

In every other sport I have been involved in there has been basically one way to play the sport.  If you ask 100 baseball coaches how to field a ground ball I think you will get the same basic answer from about 95 of them.  Ask 100 basketball coaches how to shoot a foul shot and I think you  will get the same answer from 99 of them. It is consistant throughtout the sport.

Golf it seems, is a different story.  Sean Foley is the latest "guru".  Hmmmmmm. What is the long term data on how much he has helped his students.  Golf seems to have such a closed minded attitude about its teaching processes.  We have equipment that is so much better etc. but average scores aren't much better.

Know what? I can't totally disagree with you on some of this.  I was speaking to someone recently about it and mentioned snowboarding.  I really love to snowboard and I have (my son as well) been "taught" by a few different people. They had different ways to express things but overall the message was the same.  It is very different with golf instruction.  Why?  That is a great question (one answer would be that snowboarding is overall "simpler" than the complex motion of golf). I would say it has to do with a few things first and foremost:

1. Golf instructors have so many different things (the complex part) to look at and don't "prioritize" well.  By that I mean they may focus on something that looks wrong in the backswing when the golfer has not idea what impact is even supposed to look/feel like.  Now to play devil's advocate.  Even when instructors discuss opinions on the same part of the swing they, many times, have COMPLETELY different viewpoints.  All of this leads into #2 below.

2. Golf instruction is too easy of a business to get into.  I call this the "hang your sign" and teach problem. Golf instructors get paid a very good hourly wage, relatively, and it brings many out of the woodwork to give it a shot. This, without any qualifications whatsoever.  This would be like having lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc. with very little or no training professing "truths".

Most golf instructors teach the game because they loved to play the game.  Imagine if you loved human organs and could start performing surgery tomorrow or if you loved math so you could do tax returns the next day.  This would, I assume, create quite a wide variety of methods people "thought" should work. Some would and some may not. This leads to #3.

3. My positions above don't explain one thing. That is how, well trained, high level (such as Top 100, etc.) golf instructors can disagree on some of the most basic principles of the game (look at a good sampling of Golf Magazine issues and you will surely see what I mean).  One hypothesis is that we have to look at where many of the principles these great teachers profess came to be.  That is, by listening to and reading the works of the very best players who have ever played the game.  Many of these great players have explained what they did much differently than they were actually doing it.  You can see this in looking at video of a player and comparing it to his latest book or Golf mag tip.  I don't believe this is the only reason but it is a start.....

In the end I'm not sure what the plan is to fix this but I do believe golfers need more commonalities. I'm not saying we have this all figured out but it is EXACTLY why we use classification (as in science) when we want to "prove" something about the swing and/or making it part of our teaching. Through this methodology (and we do look at the differences and commonalities of the poorest golfers as well as the best) we have been able to establish a set of measurements or definitions that govern our instruction. The way we coach our students is based upon these metrics and we DO NOT guess.

Dave

[saevel25]

I think the grip has to match the swing, i believe Jack's grip matched his swing the best. Like for me, i have been playing with to weak of a grip for the past 5 years. Pretty good, but i am going to strengthen it a bit. My left hand is good, its the right hand thats the issue. But its to fit my swing. No one said you have to use interlocking. Alot of people say they did because Jack did, but i believe most people use the grip they first started out with, with regards to overlap, 10 finger, or interlocking. I was first taught the overlap grip, and thats what i use now. I tried interlocking for a while, but it doesn't feel right.

Quote:

The #1 player in "THE ENTIRE WORLD" was only hitting 64 per cent of greens in regulation.

Guess what, he's about average there. So what, GIR doesn't mean best in the world. Golf has putting, Fairways, Scrambling, GIRs. So many stats it can make your head spin. What the best players in the world do, they make par's from places other people don't. Tiger hitting the green at Arnold's tourniment from the bunker with a long iron, then sink the putt to win. Thats what makes number 1, not overall GIR stats. There's something more intangeable to be the number 1 player in the world.

Oh, Golf is originally a gentlemen's game, so its customary to give the person the tee after he has the best score on the previous hole. Did you know that professional's, back in the day with Bobby Jones, was actually a shady profession, because they were a bunch of husslers. Bobby changed that, he brought golf back to what its meant to be. Thats why there's an honor rule, because it makes the game special, it makes it a gentlemen's game. (sorry ladies, its coining a phrase) In match play you get the honor on the next tee.

[nleary9201]

I want the honor  to be an "option".  I can prove that it is difficult to "put pressure" on your opponent because most golfers don't hit over 50 per cent of greens on par  3's for istance.  Why wouldn't you want the OPTION?

[nleary9201]

I understand all that- about the "honor". But why wouldn't someone change the rule if it could be a disadvantage. I'm not saying it is or isn't, but the OPTION just make so much more sense. How can anyone argue that an option isn't better than it being manditory you hit first.

[nleary9201]

You can't really be serious when you say other sports have as many different teaching methods as golf.  Soccer, Football, Baseball, etc. I have played or been involved with all my life.  Every camp I have ever helped with, speakers I have listened too all (pretty much) are saying the same thing in these sports. Golf instruction is all over the place.  But the results don't seem to be improving very much.  Yes old pros did play on easier courses, but how about the everyday player.  Most of the older courses haven't been made much longer if any.  Our country club course has been the same for 40yrs. and most guys still can't score.  Maybe the PGA needs to listen.

[nleary9201]

Thats my point exactly.  I'm not saying model ourselves after them, but if they can do so well with those swings, what does it say about the state of golf instruction?

[nleary9201]

I'm not saying that people in other sports don't do things differently. I am saying the instruction is much more consistant.  They are "taught" more one way. Foul shot-keep your arm straight under  the ball, flick your wrist at the end, use your legs. Just about every coach teaches that -or something close. I'm not talking about the execution, I'm talking about the teaching

[nleary9201]

If you were playing formal match play, your friend would be allowed to exercise his superstition. It would be manditory that he tee of first if he had the "honor".  Now one can answer why the option isn't better.  Because the option would be better. Who can argue that?

[nleary9201]

Hey you are in Erie-- Greenville Pa here-- bout an hour south

[nleary9201]

Couln't agree with you more. Well said.

[iacas]

Okay, let's drop the honors stuff. It's a rules thing that really seems out of place in this discussion. So that's done.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

You can't really be serious when you say other sports have as many different teaching methods as golf.

First, nobody said "as many different teaching methods as golf." But you can't say there aren't different methods for hitting, or shooting a basketball. Jamo gave you reasons and someone really involved in baseball could give you others as well.

Second, we agree that 90% of instructors suck. You're not going to get an argument form us there.

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Thats my point exactly.  I'm not saying model ourselves after them, but if they can do so well with those swings, what does it say about the state of golf instruction?

That you should come up and see us in Erie, since you're so close. :-)

Originally Posted by nleary9201

I'm not saying that people in other sports don't do things differently. I am saying the instruction is much more consistant.  They are "taught" more one way. Foul shot-keep your arm straight under  the ball, flick your wrist at the end, use your legs. Just about every coach teaches that -or something close. I'm not talking about the execution, I'm talking about the teaching

Surely you realize that comparing a free throw to hitting a golf ball with a stick is virtually impossible. They're very different moves in terms of the level of complexity. If I wanted to summarize the golf swing in a few words like that, I could. Heck, The Golfing Machine lists a few imperatives, starting with "flat left wrist," so I could easily boil the golf swing down to a few words like you've done.

Still doesn't change the fact that even free throwers shoot differently, despite the much simpler move.

P.S. Please use the quote (and multiquote) functionality. We don't know who you're responding to when you just post.