Tommy Gainey-Bubba- and Ray Romano- Golf instruction is lousy!!!

[saevel25]

I would have to agree. Baseball might be close when it comes to the batting swing, most swings are unique. But in soccer, there are skills you learn that are innate to that game, same with basketball and football. Those games are different than golf. You got to compare swing sports with swing sports. I would say tennis, golf, and baseball are were you can make coorelations, but even then golf is so unique. There are key things S&T; try to emphasize that majority of pro's do and get that down to the golfer's level. But i truely think that unique swings are the best, as long as the fallow a few fundamental items.

With regards to the honors, i don't think its right or fair to the other golfer to penalize him by being at the whim of the golfer who one the whole previously. The idea is to make the game fair so its competative, that means if hitting first is a dissadvantage, than that even's out you just winning the previous hole. Winners can't have it all there way.

[nleary9201]

You aren't listening. I'm not saying that people don't shoot free throws differently, I'm saying that they are "taught" basically the same. Golfers aren't taught with as much consistency and I think that the stats (especially) of average golfers shows that this inconsistent approach doesn't work.  The snowboard analogy is great. And if you ever tried to snowboard you know it isn't easy.

[nleary9201]

But with the current rule you are at the whim of whoever won the last hole. They MUST ( in real, competition) hit first. No option. Why can't anybody see that.

[nleary9201]

Any by saying that golf is more complex, I just don't agree.  I think hitting a 90mph fastball can be "complex."

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Any by saying that golf is more complex, I just don't agree.  I think hitting a 90mph fastball can be "complex."

I'd agree it's complex, but I don't think it's anywhere near as complex as golf. There's no worries about face angle or path in baseball, and there's no backswing, and the ball isn't on the ground. At the very least golf is far more precise than baseball, and we're not given three chances to hit each shot in golf, either.

[nleary9201]

Ok iacas, here is a little more for you to chew on.  I would like to know what the average handicap index improvement is for the average player who takes PGA pro lessons and practices "X" amount and the same average golfer who doesn't take lessons but practices the same amount. Wonder if there is any stat data from the PGA on this.  Also what is the scoring average improvement of PGA pros who are coached by ...say Sean Foley.  He is supposed to be the best in all the world.  He has a number of pros in his "stable". Wonder what the numbers say.

[walk18]

Quote: Originally Posted by nleary9201 [url=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/44376/tommy-gainey-bubba-and-ray-romano-golf-instruction-is-lousy/18#post_579056]link[/url]Any by saying that golf is more complex, I just don't agree. I think hitting a 90mph fastball can be "complex." I'd agree it's complex, but I don't think it's anywhere near as complex as golf. There's no worries about face angle or path in baseball, and there's no backswing, and the ball isn't on the ground. At the very least golf is far more precise than baseball, and we're not given three chances to hit each shot in golf, either.

I take it you've never faced a 95 mph fastball, especially not knowing if it might be a 80 mph slider or changeup. IMO it is without a doubt the hardest thing in sports, even with 3 tries. A beginning golfer could get lucky and hit a good shot, not knowing how they did it. After all the ball's just sitting there. Someone new to baseball against a 95mph fastball? No chance, even if they know it's coming. They'd be lucky to even see it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

Ok iacas, here is a little more for you to chew on.  I would like to know what the average handicap index improvement is for the average player who takes PGA pro lessons and practices "X" amount and the same average golfer who doesn't take lessons but practices the same amount. Wonder if there is any stat data from the PGA on this.  Also what is the scoring average improvement of PGA pros who are coached by ...say Sean Foley.  He is supposed to be the best in all the world.  He has a number of pros in his "stable". Wonder what the numbers say.

If you ask a question that makes sense, you might get an answer. We've already agreed that 90% of instructors flat out stink. We do not, nor do we see players fail to improve regularly with our instruction. I don't need to "chew on" things. We agree that instruction sucks but, perhaps, disagree that 100% of instruction sucks.

The best in the world says who? And coaching at the PGA Tour level is irrelevant... almost as irrelevant as scoring average. Equipment changes, conditions change, etc. Are professional golfers no better today than they were in the 1930s because they're still shooting -8 to win at Augusta (or whatever)?

[nleary9201]

So how do you determine success or progress.  And I am just picking Foley because he is the new "hot" instructor.  Haney couldn't help Ray Romano very much - haven't seen what he has done with Rush.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nleary9201

So how do you determine success or progress.  And I am just picking Foley because he is the new "hot" instructor.  Haney couldn't help Ray Romano very much - haven't seen what he has done with Rush.

Students handicap indexes drop. They tell us they're playing better. They gain distance, increase control of their golf ball, don't hit 10 fat shots per round anymore... whatever. Their swings work better, and they play better golf.

Not sure what you want to hear about Foley or Haney or anyone else, and don't really care to comment on them or any other instructors more than I already have.

[clubchamp]

I got a little nervous reading this thread... thought it was the first time I'd ever seen somebody talking to themselves on a golf forum.

It's not so much what you do before you get to a certain point but what you do when you reach the point. Think about how different every baseball player holds the bat before he takes a swing and generally it doesn't matter as long as he gets the bat to the ball in the right position. Some one pointed out that coaches in other sports teach everything the same and that's probably right but what happens leading up to them fielding the ball or hitting the ball generally doesn't matter.

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

I got a little nervous reading this thread... thought it was the first time I'd ever seen somebody talking to themselves on a golf forum.

LOL...this is funny! (no disrespect meant...just funny).

[westcyderydin]

Saying golf instruction is bad is like saying food is bad.

[yimpydimpy]

Okay the problem with this thread is the analogies being thrown around don't mean anything and are just being changed again and again to keep this "discussion" going. You can't compare hitting 90mph fastballs when we were originally talking about SWINGING the bat. The act of swinging a bat is a joke compared to a golf swing.

[ajschn06]

You aren't listening. I'm not saying that people don't shoot free throws differently, I'm saying that they are "taught" basically the same. Golfers aren't taught with as much consistency and I think that the stats (especially) of average golfers shows that this inconsistent approach doesn't work.  The snowboard analogy is great. And if you ever tried to snowboard you know it isn't easy.

I say your wrong. Golf is taught just as consistantly as any other sport. Creating the "lag" in the swing, hitting the ball before the ground, inside swing path, proper club release, etc....all of those things are key fundamentals in a good golf swing.

[nleary9201]

Sorry my posts look like I was talking to myself. It my first time on a forum and I thought I was answering each person, one at a time under the "reply" tab. I agree with you ajschn06 about everything you say are fundamental to a good golf swing. My point is simply that the methods to teach those fundamentals aren't very consistant industry wide. That it, plain and simple.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Students handicap indexes drop. They tell us they're playing better. They gain distance, increase control of their golf ball, don't hit 10 fat shots per round anymore... whatever. Their swings work better, and they play better golf.

I have two comments.

1) One of the keys to teaching golf successfully is to make the student understand that the long game is only part of what is a very complex sport. Too many students are obsessed with their swings and hitting the ball better, mistakenly thinking that that alone will reduce their scores. Unfortunately, they neglect the short game, putting, course management, fitness, proper preparation, the mental side of the game etc. which are really where they should concentrate their efforts. I am NOT saying the long game is not important, but something is very wrong when 85-90% of my lessons are on the driving range working on swings. I think most golfers gain more satisfaction from hitting the ball well than shooting low scores.

2) So I try to get them into a scoring frame of mind as we work on their ball striking. What I try to do is sell more lessons on the short game and putting, and introduce them to statistics and measuring their results. Most golfers fail to analyse exactly why they've shot 94. If they are a 12 handicapper they just shrug their shoulders and put it down to a bad day. I explain to them how to analyse their round. How many fairways did you hit? How many greens? Up & Downs? Putts? etc. Most of the time I prove to them that their long games are already good enough (i.e. their potential or objective) and it is their short game/putting holding them back. I also take it a step further so they can measure how far away they are leaving the ball. e.g. chip shots. Perhaps before the lesson their average with 10 balls from 20 yards is leaving it 10 ft from the hole and I get them down to 5 ft during the lesson. Then it doesn't take a genius to realise that you are going to make more putts from 5 ft than from 10 ft.

That's how you measure success.

[nleary9201]

I agree with what you have to say.  I see in your "list" that you have the Pelz book.  I must admit I started thinking about golf instruction after reading the way Pelz goes about his business.  He was one of the first to use hard data as a means to determine how someone plays.  I agree with his approach 100 per cent.  Coming to golf later in life I remember playing with guys who would leave the pin in on chip shots. These are hackers like me with handicaps of 8 -12 or so.  I would tell them that the data say to leave the pin in.  You will way better off, percentage wise.  They would say "well, I take it out cuz I'm saw Fred Couples take it out yesterday on TV".  The reality is for the one time this year you will chip in, it still will go in with the damn pin in or out.