Short Irons Not Carrying When With the Wind - Truth or BS?

[Old1964]

Golf God Johnny Miller said today that when you are hitting a short iron with the wind, the wind sometimes knocks the ball down so they don't carry and they end up short of the target.

Is he speaking out his microphone or is this true?

I've hit plenty of short and long irons in windy conditions and I've never noticed this phenomena. The only time I have ended up short while hitting a short iron with the wind was when I overestimated the amount of "extra carry" I thought I would get and played less club or dialed back my swing.

Any thoughts on this?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Old1964

Golf God Johnny Miller said today that when you are hitting a short iron with the wind, the wind sometimes knocks the ball down so they don't carry and they end up short of the target.

Is he speaking out his microphone or is this true?

Yes. Ever hit a golf ball without dimples?

A golf ball going downwind won't be be able to convert backspin into as much lift, won't be able to climb as much, and will sometimes "fall out of the sky" a little bit.

So, yes. It's true sometimes.

[Fourputt]

It's especially true if you try to take something off the shot.  The aerodynamic effect of the dimples plus backspin is what gives the ball lift.   When you back off a bit you don't spin the ball as much, and since it's moving with the wind, it loses effective airspeed as well, losing even more lift.  It can be quite a shock to see a ball just fall out of the air well short of the target when hitting downwind with a stiff breeze.  Just the opposite of the ballooning effect you get hitting full shots into the wind.  Players with low clubhead speed can really struggle with this because they rarely spin the ball very much.

[Old1964]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yes. Ever hit a golf ball without dimples?

A golf ball going downwind won't be able to spin as much as much, won't be able to climb as much, and will sometimes "fall out of the sky" a little bit.

So, yes. It's true sometimes.

I have never hit a ball without dimples - at least a golf ball without dimples (plenty of balls with seams, though).

I understand that hitting with the wind would decrease the lift provided by the dimples, but thought that the wind would compensate for the difference.

Any idea on the stats here? If it falls out of the sky "a little bit", is that something caddies and pro players take into account?

Is there any way that they can calculate that...e.g....."At 20 mph winds, the lift is decreased by 15% and you lose 8% of your distance?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Old1964

Any idea on the stats here? If it falls out of the sky "a little bit", is that something caddies and pro players take into account?

Is there any way that they can calculate that...e.g....."At 20 mph winds, the lift is decreased by 15% and you lose 8% of your distance?

Thing is, one gust is all it needs to send the thing down. It literally looks like it gets "knocked down" out of the sky. It's rising, rising, rising, BAM, falls like a stone. Well, not quite, but much more so than a regular golf ball.

[golf4fun12]

I have always felt that my golf shots (regardless of which club) travel further with the wind. with the wind, my pw can go 120 no problem.

[ohiolefty]

I have this issue with hitting a downwind draw with a club that's harder to get in the air....like a 3-5 iron. Or, hitting a range ball with virtually no dimples left on it .

[Old1964]

Thanks iacas - I get what you are saying now.

I really was trying to understand this.

My luck, this upcoming season in Michigan will give me ample opportunities to be short on my approach shots.

[lumpuckeroo]

I think this happens even more to "us" as we don't spin the ball like the pros.  With the wind, the more the ball spins the more it will ride the wind, but a "knuckle" ball will not be aerodynamic and will look like it gets knocked down and fall short.

[allin]

I sometimes hit knock downs down wind, especially in a quartering wind, this seems to give me more consistent distances and minimizes wind drift.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by golf4fun12

I have always felt that my golf shots (regardless of which club) travel further with the wind. with the wind, my pw can go 120 no problem.

If you swing hard and spin the ball well, then you will usually get more distance.  If you try to take something off the shot, then you get into the area of uncertainty.  A lot depends on the strength of the wind.  A strong gust at the wrong time really can knock the ball out of the air.  I've seen it happen often enough.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by iacas

A golf ball going downwind won't be be able to convert backspin into as much lift, won't be able to climb as much, and will sometimes "fall out of the sky" a little bit.

So, yes. It's true sometimes.

I agree with what I think you're trying to say, but it isn't correct to say that a ball going downwind won't be able to spin as much.   Spin is imparted by the club striking the ball and the spin rate is not dependent on the wind.    What is impacted is the lift on the ball caused by the spin and how this is impacted by the apparent wind velocity.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Clambake

I agree with what I think you're trying to say, but it isn't correct to say that a ball going downwind won't be able to spin as much.   Spin is imparted by the club striking the ball and the spin rate is not dependent on the wind.    What is impacted is the lift on the ball caused by the spin and how this is impacted by the apparent wind velocity.

There is a natural tendency to back off a bit when hitting a short iron with a strong tailwind.  That can result in exactly what you don't want... reduced backspin which will exacerbate the loss of lift from the tailwind.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Clambake

I agree with what I think you're trying to say, but it isn't correct to say that a ball going downwind won't be able to spin as much.

Correct, it will spin the same amount, but the spin is less effective because the effective air speed is decreased.

I've edited my original post to better state what I meant to say. I'm not sure why it came out the way it did. Though Fourputt is correct, I wasn't considering that possibility when I wrote it originally. Clambake, credit for spotting the error.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by iacas

Correct, it will spin the same amount, but the spin is less effective because the effective air speed is decreased.

I've edited my original post to better state what I meant to say.

I'm glad you mentioned that you edited the post.    As I said I thought I knew what you were going after, but I just read it again a couple minutes ago and thought I had completely misread your earlier post since I hadn't seen the word "convert".     For a minute I thought I was going crazy and I was getting ready to write an apologetic post!

Here is one equation I've seen used to describe the lift on a ball:

F L = ( dvr 4 av 2 di ² )(2r)

Where d is the density of air, r is the radius of the ball, av is the angular velocity (spin), etc.      We can ignore most of the variables here as the relationship we're really seeing is that lift is linearly proportional to the velocity of the ball.    This is really the "differential" velocity, i.e. the velocity of the ball relative to the wind, so if the wind is behind the ball then this differential is reduced and hence the lift force is reduced.

I'm having flashbacks from college physics.....arrgghhh!

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by Clambake

I'm glad you mentioned that you edited the post.    As I said I thought I knew what you were going after, but I just read it again a couple minutes ago and thought I had completely misread your earlier post since I hadn't seen the word "convert".     For a minute I thought I was going crazy and I was getting ready to write an apologetic post!

Here is one equation I've seen used to describe the lift on a ball:

FL = (dvr4 av 2di²)(2r)

Where d is the density of air, r is the radius of the ball, av is the angular velocity (spin), etc.      We can ignore most of the variables here as the relationship we're really seeing is that lift is linearly proportional to the velocity of the ball.    This is really the "differential" velocity, i.e. the velocity of the ball relative to the wind, so if the wind is behind the ball then this differential is reduced and hence the lift force is reduced.

I'm having flashbacks from college physics.....arrgghhh!

Oh great... physics and math... thanks for ruining the game of golf for me.

[laxbballgolf]

Is it safe to say that the ball usually flies further when you are downwind, even with short irons?  I understand the physics described in this thread and it makes sense, but does the extra "push" from the wind usually have a greater effect on carry distance (adding to it) than the loss of lift (which decreases carry distance)?  In my experience, it seems like the ball carries further downwind with all clubs, most of the time.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Clambake

I'm glad you mentioned that you edited the post.

I've found that people don't often read all the way through threads, so if "bad" information is given early I like to correct it if it's said by me or the original poster approves. That way the "correct" information is out there and the lazy people don't get bad info.

But I don't want to do anything disingenuous, either, which is why I pointed out that you caught the error.