Short Irons Not Carrying When With the Wind - Truth or BS?

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by laxbballgolf

Is it safe to say that the ball usually flies further when you are downwind, even with short irons?  I understand the physics described in this thread and it makes sense, but does the extra "push" from the wind usually have a greater effect on carry distance (adding to it) than the loss of lift (which decreases carry distance)?  In my experience, it seems like the ball carries further downwind with all clubs, most of the time.

I think the answer is "it depends".     Which is of course no help at all!     But let me explain.

It depends on the velocity of the wind.     A ball also loses forward velocity due to the drag, and this force increases as the square of the velocity.    So if the wind is fairly strong behind you, the drag force  is reduced and this may counteract the loss of lift, meaning that the wind will "carry" the ball farther even with a loss of lift.      Also, it depends on the club used.    A ball hit with a driver will have a much higher velocity and hence the differential velocity between wind and ball is much less a percentage than a ball hit with a wedge so the percentage impact on the lifting force is less.     The ball hit with a wedge will also have a greater angular velocity, so that will contribute more to the lift.      And the launch angle varies across the clubs as well, impacting the ballistics part of the equations.     And it also depends greatly on the type of swing someone has and how that swing may change throughout the bag - someone who delofts the club at impact or has a steep descending blow with a wedge but sweeps other clubs will also see all these variables interact differently.

If one thinks of this problem there are basically too many variables which all interact with each other to make any hard and fast predictions.     If there are any computer modeling whizzes on here, there is probably an interesting paper that could be published analyzing the impact of different clubs at different wind velocities.     But just thinking about it makes my head hurt.

By the way, I think the complexity seen in this problem shows one of the reasons that golf is so hard to learn to play well and why different clubs and balls are so different for all of us - we have to find the right combo that works for us in the conditions we play, and we're dealing with a number of variables that both interact with each other and change.    It just can't be distilled into a simple formula.

[bunkerputt]

Man.  This was happening to me today.  The ball was just falling out of the sky.  An 8-iron was carrying 160, and my carry lately is around 150-155.  I was definitely getting a little boost, but it wasn't as much as the wind behind me would lead me to believe.  I hit one just a little harder and it flew 175 easy.  I think that was because of the spin more than the ball speed.

Johnny Miller says a lot of wacky things for sure, though...  Probably the weirdest thing I ever heard him say is "To hit a fade, you want to push away with your left hand and pull through with your right hand."  He actually said it was a "Push-me pull-you kind of swing".  I have no clue what that means.  Maybe a genius can enlighten me.  The coolest thing I ever heard him say was that long lag putts almost always hop.  That made me feel better because I was hopping a lot of really long putts and thought my stroke was whacked.

[golf4fun12]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If you swing hard and spin the ball well, then you will usually get more distance.  If you try to take something off the shot, then you get into the area of uncertainty.  A lot depends on the strength of the wind.  A strong gust at the wrong time really can knock the ball out of the air.  I've seen it happen often enough.

I understand what you are trying to say. with some strong wind, I can hit my 8 iron 170 if I swing a little harder than normal.

[phillyk]

I get what everyone is saying in this thread.  But is it true that with lots of spin, the ball will travel further?  Because I produce large amounts of spin on short irons and I easily hit the ball further with the wind.  My pitching wedge is normally at 150 yards, and with even a 10mph wind I can get 155 to 160 yards out of it.  Or are we talking shorter distances than that?

[Old1964]

Originally Posted by Clambake

I'm glad you mentioned that you edited the post.    As I said I thought I knew what you were going after, but I just read it again a couple minutes ago and thought I had completely misread your earlier post since I hadn't seen the word "convert".     For a minute I thought I was going crazy and I was getting ready to write an apologetic post!

Here is one equation I've seen used to describe the lift on a ball:

FL = (dvr4 av 2di²)(2r)

Where d is the density of air, r is the radius of the ball, av is the angular velocity (spin), etc.      We can ignore most of the variables here as the relationship we're really seeing is that lift is linearly proportional to the velocity of the ball.    This is really the "differential" velocity, i.e. the velocity of the ball relative to the wind, so if the wind is behind the ball then this differential is reduced and hence the lift force is reduced.

I'm having flashbacks from college physics.....arrgghhh!

I gave you a thumbs up for two reasons. First, that is one bitc$in equation. Second, I think you actually understand it!

I can't even figure out how to get all of my equipment to shrink down to the bag icon

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Johnny Miller says a lot of wacky things for sure, though...  Probably the weirdest thing I ever heard him say is "To hit a fade, you want to push away with your left hand and pull through with your right hand."  He actually said it was a "Push-me pull-you kind of swing".  I have no clue what that means.  Maybe a genius can enlighten me.

I'm not a Johnny fan, but I'd have to agree with him. This method can work good. It just depends on the person. I sometimes hit fades this way. To me, I feel like I'm pushing, out to the right with my left hand and pulling my right hand down the target line.

To me, it's a complex explanation of holding the face open.

[golf4fun12]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

I'm not a Johnny fan, but I'd have to agree with him. This method can work good. It just depends on the person. I sometimes hit fades this way. To me, I feel like I'm pushing, out to the right with my left hand and pulling my right hand down the target line.

To me, it's a complex explanation of holding the face open.

I always felt that hitting a fade was easy for the one reason that you dont have to finish the swing. just keep the top of the left hand pointing straight down the fairway throughout the swing and a fade will happen.

[phillyk]

Originally Posted by shortstop20

I'm not a Johnny fan, but I'd have to agree with him. This method can work good. It just depends on the person. I sometimes hit fades this way. To me, I feel like I'm pushing, out to the right with my left hand and pulling my right hand down the target line.

To me, it's a complex explanation of holding the face open.

When I try to hit a fade, I just try to feel for a slight out to in swing path.  My normal shot is a 5-10 yard draw, and when I try that control fade through outside in swing path it gets very accurate with a sacrifice of 5 yards.  Reason I don't use it that often is that for me, it can easily turn into a slice.  I normally use the fade on driver shots in which accuracy is necessary for a shot to the green.

[TheGeekGolfer]

Yes, this is one of the things that Johnny says that is actually true.  That, and 'don't sole the club in high grass', although he must point that out 20 times a broadcast.  Anyway...I've seen / experienced this in practice, also.  You also have to remember that the wind speed isn't constant due to 'wind gusts' and also different wind speeds at different heights in general and due to trees / buildings, etc.

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by phillyk

When I try to hit a fade, I just try to feel for a slight out to in swing path.  My normal shot is a 5-10 yard draw, and when I try that control fade through outside in swing path it gets very accurate with a sacrifice of 5 yards.  Reason I don't use it that often is that for me, it can easily turn into a slice.  I normally use the fade on driver shots in which accuracy is necessary for a shot to the green.

I've never been a fan of the pull fade. For me it's much easier to hit a push fade.

Aim left, swing inside-out with a face that's slightly open to the path.

[mdl]

I PMed Clambake about this but he hasn't gotten back to me yet, so I figured I'd just post it.  I'm up for coding up some simulations, but I'd need some help with the physics.  I'm good with math modeling and diff eqs and whatnot, but I know very little physics, so I'd need help translating swing speed, club loft, angle of descent, wind speed and wind direction into launch speed, launch angle, and spin rate, into forward distance traveled (assuming constant wind).  I'd do some simulations for ranges of swing speeds, angles of descent, wind speed, and wind direction, and share the results with everyone if I can get some help.

Anyone?

[mdl]

I'm not sure this is the right area, but there's not really one, so I'm putting it here.  I was looking at this thread:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/44543/short-irons-not-carrying-when-with-the-wind-truth-or-bs

on whether a helping wind can actually decrease your loft enough to overcome the help from the wind behind the ball and actually take away distance, or at least not give you any distance.  Someone suggested that there are lots of variables, and making any generalizations is too hard, but that you could do some simulations to figure out when that might occur.  I'm up for coding and running the simulations, and I'm comfortable with the math in general, but I know very little physics.

So, I'm wondering if anyone here give me, or could at least point me to a good source (and give me a little help interpreting it) that would give me all the various equations I need to calculate launch angle, launch speed, and spin rate from swing speed, club loft, and angle of descent, and then to calculate forward distance traveled from launch angle, launch speed, spin rate,  air density, wind speed, and wind direction (assuming constant wind of course!)?

Obviously I'd share results if I got reasonable seeming ones.  Anyone?

[Clambake]

Resurrecting this thread, I found the following link that is interesting:

http://www.trajectoware.com/wrap.php?content=description.html

The company has some software that appears to predict carry conditions for different clubs and different conditions, including wind.     Looks kind of interesting.