Is there a 5th Power Accumulator?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Not sure if it is stated in TGM, but usually when you make a case for "variables" you are assuming they are independent.

I don't think that's true. Also, you're the only one to have used the word "variable." But as Dave said find it in TGM and we'll have a look. Again, #2 alone really even propel a golf ball forwards...

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Good point about chipping and #5.  that may be the best way to test to see if it is independent.  You could chip the ball varying each accumulator while holding the others constant.  You could do the same for the other accumulators.

You can't chip a ball forward using only #2. You can't reasonably move your #1 and #4 independently at all (with both hands on the club).

Again, we're not saying that #5 is independent. It's not... it's affected by #2 and a teeny tiny bit by #3... but none of the other accumulators are independent in that sense either.

Originally Posted by mattttt25

While I think it impacts a swing (what doesn't), I'm having a hard time considering it a separate PA.  I can't see how it's not simply a result of #2 and #3, if your grip doesn't change during the swing.  Sitting here in my office with a club, I can't not bend my right wrist when executing #2 and #3.  And proposed #5 (that's my term) is absolutely related to #2 and #3 and how severe each is executed.

#2 is hinging of the wrists, which is nearly perpendicular to the motion of #5.

#3 is rolling the left forearm (basically), which you can easily do without affecting #5 at all.

#2 can tie in to #5 somewhat, but only completely IF your left hand wrist was completely perpendicular to your right hand wrist.

#3 doesn't tie into it at all.

I'm not sure you've understood what we're truly saying about #5. I filmed a short video, but I wasn't happy with it. We'll film a video on this down the road.

Originally Posted by mchepp

Is releasing PA5 done during the "release"? Where would you define that it is released? I ask because I think there is a different amount of release depending on if you use CF or CP. It seems to me that CF would have a great deal more release of PA5. What are your thoughts on this?

I'll let Dave respond later, but I'd agree with what you say in CF versus CP. Part of that does relate to how it ties in to #2 and #3, as a CP release will typically feature less unloading of #3 in the release and more reloading of #2 (re-hinging, re-cocking) while a CF release will just throw the clubhead out, the arms out, have a higher rate of closure (more #3), and will often not re-cock the club as quickly.

As to "when" it seems to vary. Some begin releasing from about P4, some as late as P6 (nearly).

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Interesting indeed.

A question:

Is releasing PA5 done during the "release"? Where would you define that it is released? I ask because I think there is a different amount of release depending on if you use CF or CP. It seems to me that CF would have a great deal more release of PA5. What are your thoughts on this?

P.S. I hate using the word release because it is used so differently, but I cannot think of a better word.

I kind of hate using "release" as well but it is the best fit I have so far (going from max bend to less than max bend just takes too long to type).  You are correct that, so far, in our findings PA5 is "releasing" more as the right arm to rib cage pressure point is lost and the swing is more "CF".  That said, it is really happening more as the swing progresses from impact (P7) to follow through (P8). There is very little difference that I have seen at impact itself.

Dave

[Taggsy]

I realise I'm late wading into this thread, so apologies for missing this first time around!

The theory of this 5th Power Accumulator is interesting but.... from my understanding of TGM, it's wrong. And I'd like to explain why I think so.

Firstly, I agree with a couple of the points David has made. Namely;

• The angle between the back of your right hand and right forearm changes from Adjusted Address to The Top (i.e. the angle decreases), and then returns to something like what it was during Impact.
• That this change in angle is part of the Power Package Assembly.

However, what David is describing, and showing in every series of * golf swing * pictures, is a result of the First Power Accumulator (the bending and straightening of the right arm) and the golfer maintaining a constant left wrist angle.

A quick experiment to demonstrate what I mean would be this;

• Hold out your arms and make your golf grip (you don't need to hold a golf club for this)
• Keep your left arm straight and bend your right arm at the elbow to around 90 degrees.

Look what happens to the angle of the right wrist. So long as you're not bending your left wrist, you will notice that right wrist angle decreasing. It decreases and increases with the bending and straightening of the right arm.

What happens if you try to keep that angle the same when bending that right arm? You'd either have to let the clubshaft leave the your right hand and roll into your fingers only- or you'd have to bend that left wrist. Should you bend that left wrist? It's not a good idea...

Another experiment would be to attempt to use this accumulator in isolation. So again, hold out your hands and make your golf grip. Without any help this time from the bending of the right elbow, bend your right wrist to decrease that angle. Can you do it? Absolutely. Can you do it without arching the left wrist? No.

So in isolation, this accumulator would be the bending and straightening of the right wrist (and yes, this does happen during the swing, but as we've seen above, only because of the right arm), conversely it is also the arching and bending of the left wrist. Should you bend that left wrist? No sir!

To address the non-golfing examples;

• Hitting an nail with a hammer isn't the wrist arching and bending (as you're suggesting), it's the wrist cocking and uncocking. That's the Second Accumulator.
• Throwing a ball isn't the same as swinging a club. The Power Package is an adjustable triangle consisting of Accumulators and Lever Assemblies, it's disingenuous to compare the two, especially - specifically - when comparing it to Golfing Machine terminology. The biggest difference between throwing a ball compared to a golf swing is there's no left arm involvement for the throw (yes, you could argue the mass of the left arm moving out of the way, increasing the pivot RPM by way of interia), and with no left arm there's no left wrist to keep "flat".

____________________________________

So to summarise, the "5th Accumulator" is;

• ....the result of the 1st Accumulator and not bending the left wrist on the backswing.
• ....basically "flipping" the wrists when used in isolation.

((Submitted with the greatest of respect to the Golf Evolution team))

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

However, what David is describing, and showing in every series of *golf swing* pictures, is a result of the First Power Accumulator (the bending and straightening of the right arm) and the golfer maintaining a constant left wrist angle.

A quick experiment to demonstrate what I mean would be this;

Hold out your arms and make your golf grip (you don't need to hold a golf club for this)

Keep your left arm straight and bend your right arm at the elbow to around 90 degrees.

Look what happens to the angle of the right wrist. So long as you're not bending your left wrist, you will notice that right wrist angle decreasing.

I do not find that it necessarily does that. Not even close. I'm quite capable of loading #4 and #1 and not loading "#5" at all.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

Another experiment would be to attempt to use this accumulator in isolation. So again, hold out your hands and make your golf grip. Without any help this time from the bending of the right elbow, bend your right wrist to decrease that angle. Can you do it? Absolutely. Can you do it without arching the left wrist? No.

We chose to call it bending of the right wrist for a reason. In the golf swing, the right wrist will bend back as the left wrist cocks up. The orientation of the wrists change. At the top of your backswing, for example, you can have the smallest right wrist angle ever without having a palmar flexed (bowed) left wrist. It depends primarily on #2/#3 but also on how your hands are oriented to each other on the grip.

So do it. Use the accumulator in isolation. That means no left hand on the grip . Quite possible to hit a ball. In fact, you can hit it a fair amount farther than by using #2 or #3, in most cases.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

Hitting an nail with a hammer isn't the wrist arching and bending (as you're suggesting), it's the wrist cocking and uncocking. That's the Second Accumulator.

Second accumulator is not hitting a nail with a hammer, no. Plane is different. It would be if the nail were vertical and we were driving straight down (and technically with the left wrist, not the right).

Originally Posted by Taggsy

Throwing a ball isn't the same as swinging a club. The Power Package is an adjustable triangle consisting of Accumulators and Lever Assemblies, it's disingenuous to compare the two, especially - specifically - when comparing it to Golfing Machine terminology. The biggest difference between throwing a ball compared to a golf swing is there's no left arm involvement for the throw (yes, you could argue the mass of the left arm moving out of the way, increasing the pivot RPM by way of interia), and with no left arm there's no left wrist to keep "flat".

You may be placing too much importance on our use of the the concept of "throwing." The throwing motions we've shown simply show that it's a way of adding speed and why we called the action "throwing."

Originally Posted by Taggsy

So to summarise, the "5th Accumulator" is;

....the result of the 1st Accumulator and not bending the left wrist on the backswing.

....basically "flipping" the wrists when used in isolation.

Disagree with the first. Kind of agree with the second.

[Taggsy]

(I'm a bit daft and having trouble with the multi quotes, so I'm having to copy and paste your replies!)

"I do not find that it necessarily does that. Not even close. I'm quite capable of loading #4 and #1 and not loading "#5" at all."

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't see how it's even possible to use the First power accumulator (and so by virtue the Forth), maintain a constant left wrist angle , and not have the right wrist bend.

"In the golf swing, the right wrist will bend back as the left wrist cocks up."

I disagree here. The right wrist rolls as the left wrist cocks. If there's no bending of the right arm, and you stood with a club, simply cocking and uncocking your left wrist, there would be no change in angle between the back of the right hand, and the right forearm. The right wrist rolls, not bends.

"The orientation of the wrists change. At the top of your backswing, for example, you can have the smallest right wrist angle ever without having a palmar flexed (bowed) left wrist. It depends primarily on #2/#3 but also on how your hands are oriented to each other on the grip."

I agree with the first two sentences, but not the third. I still stand by that right wrist angle changing by maintaining a constant left wrist angle (for sake of ease, we'll say it's a flat left wrist), and the bending of the right arm- for the reason I gave above (rolling right wrist, not bending).

"So do it. Use the accumulator in isolation. That means no left hand on the grip . Quite possible to hit a ball. In fact, you can hit it a fair amount farther than by using #2 or #3, in most cases."

There's the rub! "That means no left hand on the grip" means you no longer have the Triangle Assembly (6-A-1). That means this "Fifth Accumulator" isn't part of the Power Package- and if it's not part of the Power Package, it's not an Accumulator... it's simply a way of hitting the ball with one hand. If you take away the concept of the Power Package and what that entails, you could argue there are plenty of other Accumulators, or just ways to hit the ball in general, without resorting to Accumulators 1-4. Off the top of my head, you could say the Pivot, in and of itself, without the Forth Accumulator angle, is another Accumulator, as would be simply holding your hands completely still and swaying your body back and forth to hit the ball (albeit, an incredibly short distance!)

If you're using Golfing Machine terminology and concepts, you can't pick and choose what applies, and then claim there are undiscovered parts.

"Second accumulator is not hitting a nail with a hammer, no. Plane is different. It would be if the nail were vertical and we were driving straight down (and technically with the left wrist, not the right)."

The Second Accumulator is "when the left wrist is cocked". It doesn't matter on what plane the clubshaft is on or in what direction the cocking takes place. I'm sorry to say I can't see the grip employed for those hammer pictures. If the wrist isn't cocking and uncocking (the traditional way of using a hammer), then I'm wrong in that respect. It simply means the wrist is bending and arching, or in layman's terms, "flipping the wrists". That motion isn't compatible with the Flat Left Wrist imperative.

"You may be placing too much importance on our use of the the concept of "throwing." The throwing motions we've shown simply show that it's a way of adding speed and why we called the action "throwing.""

I completely agree with the sentiments of that picture, and that releasing that right wrist angle when throwing a ball makes it go faster- but again, you're comparing Golfing Machine concepts (i.e. the Power Package) with a one-armed technique completely different from swinging a golf club.

I agree with the concept of this right wrist angle, but I think what's already in The Golfing Machine can explain what it is- and it's a byproduct of a bending right arm and a stationary left wrist, not a separate Accumulator.

That's not to say you can't actively play around with this right wrist angle, and consciously decrease it on the backswing, and increase it on the downswing... but that's just "flipping".

(( Erik, I'll email you ;) ))

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I can't see how it's even possible to use the First power accumulator (and so by virtue the Forth), maintain a constant left wrist angle, and not have the right wrist bend.

I suppose. I've done it repeatedly. If your elbows stay in the same position, the triangle down to your hands maintains the same orientation, the wrists will maintain their positions as well.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

"In the golf swing, the right wrist will bend back as the left wrist cocks up."

I disagree here. The right wrist rolls as the left wrist cocks. If there's no bending of the right arm, and you stood with a club, simply cocking and uncocking your left wrist, there would be no change in angle between the back of the right hand, and the right forearm. The right wrist rolls, not bends.

I think you misunderstood. I did not say the left wrist cocking causes the right wrist to bend back. Just that those two things occur. And they're not in the same plane - they're virtually perpendicular to each other.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I agree with the first two sentences, but not the third. I still stand by that right wrist angle changing by maintaining a constant left wrist angle (for sake of ease, we'll say it's a flat left wrist), and the bending of the right arm- for the reason I gave above (rolling right wrist, not bending).

Okay. I'm doing it right now. Well right then I was typing. I was doing it just prior to saying I was doing it "right now." :-)

Originally Posted by Taggsy

There's the rub! "That means no left hand on the grip" means you no longer have the Triangle Assembly (6-A-1). That means this "Fifth Accumulator" isn't part of the Power Package- and if it's not part of the Power Package, it's not an Accumulator... it's simply a way of hitting the ball with one hand.

Okay, put your left hand on the club. Do nothing but fold your right wrist back and then "throw" it. The clubhead will move and you've generated power.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

The Second Accumulator is "when the left wrist is cocked". It doesn't matter on what plane the clubshaft is on or in what direction the cocking takes place. I'm sorry to say I can't see the grip employed for those hammer pictures. If the wrist isn't cocking and uncocking (the traditional way of using a hammer), then I'm wrong in that respect. It simply means the wrist is bending and arching, or in layman's terms, "flipping the wrists". That motion isn't compatible with the Flat Left Wrist imperative.

Aha! Why do we need to maintain a flat left wrist after impact? We don't. The Flat Left Wrist need only be present at impact . If it's flat well after impact (not counting in a divot slowing the clubhead down to allow for the flatness to be maintained longer), then speed's been wasted.

The accumulators are not independent. It's difficult to load #1 without also loading #4 (and vice versa). Your grip will affect how much #2 and #3 contribute to each other. So it is with #5 - several things contribute. But the right wrist folding and "throwing" has not been discussed as a source of power, yet it is, and it's clearly one utilized by the game's best players. They clearly don't maintain a flat left wrist well into the follow-through and finish. They've actively thrown their trail wrist.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I agree with the concept of this right wrist angle, but I think what's already in The Golfing Machine can explain what it is- and it's a byproduct of a bending right arm and a stationary left wrist, not a separate Accumulator.

That's not to say you can't actively play around with this right wrist angle, and consciously decrease it on the backswing, and increase it on the downswing... but that's just "flipping".

You can call it flipping all you want. If it happens after impact I don't care. :-) The truth is a lot of players actively throw the right wrist coming through impact.

I call flipping when the shaft passes the inline condition prior to impact. Ideally the shaft will pass the inline condition just after impact (again not allowing for a divot to slow the clubhead down fairly quickly). That'll show a good amount of speed is generated.

Flipping can increase power... if you time it properly. Yes, you read that right.

[Taggsy]

Again, apologies for my lame-looking quoting!

“I suppose. I've done it repeatedly. If your elbows stay in the same position, the triangle down to your hands maintains the same orientation, the wrists will maintain their positions as well.”

I’ll eat humble pie here and admit my example of simply bending your right arm is a poor one, because you can maintain that right wrist angle when performing that simple motion. But, as you quite rightly pointed out, that’s only possible when maintaining the angle between both forearms.

I hope we can find some common ground here and both agree on a couple of points with regards to your “5th Accumulator” concept as you see it.

• The “5th Accumulator” is the angle between the back of the right hand, and the right forearm.
• The “5th Accumulator” does not affect the left wrist angle.

If we can agree on that, then I hope we can agree that the “5th Accumulator” is effectively the right elbow moving away from the left elbow on the backswing (on whatever path), and then moving back towards it on the downswing (independent from the actual bending of the right arm, the First Accumulator).

(The right elbow moving away from the left elbow increases the angle between both forearms- the triangle you’d mentioned. This increasing angle will decrease the angle between the back of the right hand and the right forearm because we’re not changing the left wrist angle…)

To go off on a brief, but important tangent, the Power Package Assembly consists of a two-dimensional triangle made up of three lengths; the hands to the left shoulder, the left shoulder to the right shoulder, and the right shoulder to the hands. (So using the First Accumulator is simply decreasing the distance between the hands and the right shoulder- which of course also changes the angle between the left arm and chest, the Forth Accumulator).

Now, if we understand the above Triangle Assembly, we can see the positioning of the right elbow in relation to the distance from the left elbow (which I hope we agree is essentially what the “5th Accumulator” is) doesn’t, if used in isolation, have any consequence on the angles and length of this triangle. It’s not part of the two-dimensional triangle; it’s an extra point that hangs below it.

So if it's not an Accumulator what is it and why has it been overlooked in TGM?

You will find the answer in 7-3 and 10-3. The position of the right elbow, ergo the “5th Accumulator” angle, is defined as The Stroke, the third of the twenty-four components. Look at the pictures of the Punch, Pitch and Push Strokes. There’s your “5th Accumulator”.

“Okay, put your left hand on the club. Do nothing but fold your right wrist back and then "throw" it. The clubhead will move and you've generated power.”

Before I respond to this, I want to make sure we’re in agreement to the two points I’d made above about this “5th Accumulator”, namely;

• The “5th Accumulator” is the angle between the back of the right hand, and the right forearm.
• The “5th Accumulator” does not affect the left wrist angle.

If you don’t agree with the second point, ignore completely the previous explanation above. If the “5th Accumulator” is affecting the left wrist angle, then you’re suggesting this movement is simply arching the left wrist on the backswing, and bending it back to its in-line position on the downswing… but I don’t believe that’s what you’re advocating. (I’ll come to the left wrist bending after Impact in a moment- for now I’m concerned with everything prior to and including Impact).

Now, if I hold the club with both hands and “do nothing but fold my right wrist”, that has an affect on the left wrist. Anyone with a left grip that isn’t turned almost 90 degrees at address, with the back of the left hand facing skywards, would have their left wrist arch with the bending of the right wrist.

Of course, if the left wrist were turned 90 degrees at address, and you’d attempted to bend the right wrist (assuming your could even hold the club in such a way without having to turn your right wrist also), you’d be cocking the left wrist - the Second Accumulator.

There is a way to do as you suggest and only bend the right wrist without that having an affect on the left wrist, but as I’ve described above, that would involve having some right arm bend, and then simply moving the right elbow away from the left elbow.

Set your address up in that fashion and then use the “5th Accumulator”. The Power Package wouldn’t move in the slightest, and neither would the clubhead. You’d simply be stood there moving your right elbow on your bent right arm to and from the left elbow.

You’ve not moved the Lever Assemblies to an out-of-line position- you’ve not accumulated any power.

“Aha! Why do we need to maintain a flat left wrist after impact? We don't.”

I never said you did. You need to maintain a flat left wrist through impact. The point I was making was; if your “5th Accumulator” was about bending and straightening (the process of arching) the right wrist, then the left wrist would be arching on the backswing, and bending on the downswing. If it’s bending on the downswing, then it’s bending through impact.

Of course, none of this happens in the example pictures David posted because the left wrist angle remains stationary. And if the left wrist remains stationary, and the right wrist angle is changing… It’s because of the right elbow movement… and the right elbow movement isn’t an accumulator.

“The accumulators are not independent. It's difficult to load #1 without also loading #4 (and vice versa). Your grip will affect how much #2 and #3 contribute to each other.”

You’re spot on. But I wouldn’t say it’s “difficult” to load the First Accumulator without the Fourth, I’d say it’s impossible! Just as I’d described the two-dimensional Triangle Assembly above- you’re shortening the length between the hands and right shoulder (by bending the right arm), and this will cause the angle opposite (the angle between the left arm and the chest) to decrease. That angle is the Fourth Accumulator.

“You can call it flipping all you want. If it happens after impact I don't care.”

Neither do I, that’s why I wrote about the left wrist bending “on the downswing”, not “after Impact”.

“Flipping can increase power... if you time it properly. Yes, you read that right.”

As could bending the left arm at the elbow on the backswing and straightening it again on the downswing, or even shifting your weight to the back foot on the backswing and shifting it to the front foot on the downswing.

A lot of things can increase power if you time them properly- it doesn’t mean you should attempt to build that into your swing.

I’ll summarise again because it’s another long post ;)

Your “5th Accumulator” boils down to the left wrist’s involvement;

• If you believe the “5th Accumulator” affects the left wrist’s angle, then what you’re advocating is simply the arching of the left wrist when accumulating, and then the bend ing of the left wrist when releasing. That is to say consciously bend ing the left wrist through Impact (I’ve underlined the “ing” because you can be bending without yet having a bent wrist).
• If you believe the “5th Accumulator” doesn’t affect the left wrist angle, then it’s simply the position of the right elbow in reference to the left elbow on a bent right arm. If that’s the case, it’s called The Stroke, 7-3.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I hope we can find some common ground here and both agree on a couple of points with regards to your “5th Accumulator” concept as you see it.

The “5th Accumulator” is the angle between the back of the right hand, and the right forearm.

The “5th Accumulator” does not affect the left wrist angle.

I agree with the first. I do not agree at all with the second.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

If we can agree on that, then I hope we can agree that the “5th Accumulator” is effectively the right elbow moving away from the left elbow on the backswing (on whatever path), and then moving back towards it on the downswing (independent from the actual bending of the right arm, the First Accumulator).

Nope. I don't agree with that at all. That's not how we defined it.

The fifth accumulator is basically timed flipping. You time throwing out the right forearm flying wedge.

You're getting way too literal on "what an accumulator is." Clearly since I'm saying that this accumulator does not maintain the flat left wrist imperative, it's not an "accumulator" in the truest sense and can't be one per TGM. But it's "close enough" because it's in that triangle of the power assembly, so we called it an accumulator. Think of it as slightly tongue in cheek if you prefer.

I've also removed all the stuff about your right elbow position because you're wrong there. I didn't say that; I only made the point about maintaining the same conditions with the elbows so you could load 4 and 1 and not load "5". We're not in agreement with the second point about the left wrist and we're not in agreement about the elbow positions.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

Of course, none of this happens in the example pictures David posted because the left wrist angle remains stationary. And if the left wrist remains stationary, and the right wrist angle is changing… It’s because of the right elbow movement… and the right elbow movement isn’t an accumulator.

Except the back of the left wrist angle changes in the pictures Dave and I posted, and they'll change different amounts based on the grips people use. It's not about the right elbow movement.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

As could bending the left arm at the elbow on the backswing and straightening it again on the downswing, or even shifting your weight to the back foot on the backswing and shifting it to the front foot on the downswing.

Yes to the first. Look at some of the long drive guys. We'd add more levers. No to the second. Bunch of studies have shown rotational speed is preferable to linear speed.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

A lot of things can increase power if you time them properly- it doesn’t mean you should attempt to build that into your swing.

Including the releasing of the angle between the right forearm and the back of the right wrist. The right forearm flying wedge.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I’ll summarise again because it’s another long post ;)

Your “5th Accumulator” boils down to the left wrist’s involvement;

If you believe the “5th Accumulator” affects the left wrist’s angle, then what you’re advocating is simply the arching of the left wrist when accumulating, and then the bending of the left wrist when releasing. That is to say consciously bending the left wrist through Impact (I’ve underlined the “ing” because you can be bending without yet having a bent wrist).

If you believe the “5th Accumulator” doesn’t affect the left wrist angle, then it’s simply the position of the right elbow in reference to the left elbow on a bent right arm. If that’s the case, it’s called The Stroke, 7-3.

It's possible to change #2 and #3 and #5 at the same time while maintaining a fairly consistent left wrist angle. They interplay with each other. Past impact where #2 and #3 are fairly "dormant" then we do see the left wrist angle changing as #5 is thrown. So again I don't entirely agree with bullet #1 above.

I definitely don't agree with any of the elbow talk. That was just a way to get you to load #4 and #1 and not change the wrist conditions.

[Taggsy]

With your explanations of the right wrist angle, we may have a conundrum regarding how this "Accumulator" loads.

To sum up where we stand on the "5th Accumulator" using your answers from the above posts;

• The "Fifth Accumulator" is not the result of the First (and so Fourth) Accumulators, in conjunction with a stationary left wrist (post 22 - last response)
• The "Fifth Accumulator" is not the result of the position of the right elbow from the left elbow (post 26 - second response)
• The "Fifth Accumulator" does affect the left wrist angle (post 26 - first response)

I'll take these factors as being true, and now I'd like you to perform an on plane (or best you can) backswing for me, taking the hands to around head height or whatever's normal for you but using these criteria;

• You must use the First Accumulator, bending your right arm to 90 degrees or so.
• You must move your right elbow away from the left, so at a DTL view the angle between the right and left forearms is around 90 degrees (or as close as you can get it).
• You must have a flat left wrist at address, and this angle must not change at all. Maintain the flat left wrist right to the top.
• (Throw in the Second and Third Accumulators and a Pivot, make it a "normal" swing ;)

So we should see this backswing would have no change in the "5th Accumulator" angle from address to the top, right?

Why? Because you've performed every motion you said the "5th Accumulator" isn't, and for good measure, not performed a motion you said the "5th Accumulator" is.

How'd you get on... because I'm having a problem ;)

[iacas]

It appears that you're trying really hard to fit this into TGM, and I don't know that it does. That may be our fault for calling it a "power accumulator" but we don't take the naming as seriously or as literally as you seem to.

The simple truth is that the best players in the world change their right wrist angle throughout the backswing, downswing, and past impact. Doing so can create speed and add power. We called it the "fifth accumulator" because it's "kind of" right there with #2 and #3. It may very well not be an accumulator in the TGM sense. We're okay with that.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

I'll take these factors as being true, and now I'd like you to perform an on plane (or best you can) backswing for me, taking the hands to around head height or whatever's normal for you but using these criteria;

You must use the First Accumulator, bending your right arm to 90 degrees or so.

You must move your right elbow away from the left, so at a DTL view the angle between the right and left forearms is around 90 degrees (or as close as you can get it).

You must have a flat left wrist at address, and this angle must not change at all. Maintain the flat left wrist right to the top.

(Throw in the Second and Third Accumulators and a Pivot, make it a "normal" swing ;)

Why should I have to change the distance between my elbows? I don't contend that it's relevant.

Why should I have a flat left wrist at address? That's not normal. And Ben Hogan slightly cupped at the top of the backswing, but he still used what we've called "PA5."

If you want to see a swing using PA5, look at my swing video in my "My Swing" thread.

Originally Posted by Taggsy

So we should see this backswing would have no change in the "5th Accumulator" angle from address to the top, right?

Why? Because you've performed every motion you said the "5th Accumulator" isn't, and for good measure, not performed a motion you said the "5th Accumulator" is.

How'd you get on... because I'm having a problem ;)

The PA5 angle changes from P1 to P4. It changes from P4 to P7 to P8, too.

Good luck, Taggsy. Thanks for the discussion. But I feel like all we've really managed to do is show that "PA5" is not going to fit into TGM, and frankly, we're fine with that. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that throwing that angle isn't used by the world's best to add power. :-)

P.S. Your current avatar, no real PA5. Less power than is available.

[iacas]

BTW...

The lines you'll want to pay attention to are of course the green ones.

[Taggsy]

Originally Posted by iacas

Good luck, Taggsy. Thanks for the discussion. But I feel like all we've really managed to do is show that "PA5" is not going to fit into TGM, and frankly, we're fine with that. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and that throwing that angle isn't used by the world's best to add power. :-)

My argument was never that it doesn't exist, nor that it isn't extremely useful. After all, of the pictures David initially posted show clear as day that the "PA5" angle is there and it's changing exactly how he described.

The point I was trying to make was that the "PA5" can be explained using TGM concepts without creating new ones or claiming it's an undiscovered piece of the swing.

I know you've not agreed with me, but I believe the "PA5" angle on the backswing and downswing is a natural effect of the other Accumulators and wrist positions, not something new or independent.

Post impact, I believe the "PA5" angle is described in 2-K, The Flail. Through Impact to Low Point, the Primary Lever Assembly reaches its in-line position (i.e. the left arm and clubshaft are in a straight line). Once the clubhead passes the hands, the Primary Lever Assembly is out-of-line again, this time in Centrifugal Deceleration.

How you go past that in-line position and allow the clubhead to pass the hands is up to you. You either maintain the flat left wrist, and continue rolling the wrists (the Third Accumulator), or you simply bend the left wrist (or a combination of both).

When employing Angled or (Dual-Action) Vertical Hinge Action, you must bend the left wrist to allow the clubhead to pass the hands. If you didn't, you'd either end up rolling the wrists anyway, causing (Dual Actioned) Horizontal Hinge Action, or the clubhead wouldn't pass the hands and you wouldn't go into Centrifugal Deceleration, causing a great loss of speed (nicely demonstrated in my avatar pic ;)

But anyway, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me - I know you'd rather be arguing the toss about hip slides and ball flight laws ;) ;)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

The point I was trying to make was that the "PA5" can be explained using TGM concepts without creating new ones or claiming it's an undiscovered piece of the swing.

I disagree that it can. If anything TGM places too much emphasis on maintaining a constant RFFW and/or sustaining the flat left wrist too long.

But in the end, I kind of see that as irrelevant. I know you're just moving up in the TGM hierarchy and all that, but TGM is on its way out. 60 or 70% of the book should be re-written, and it's increasingly more and more difficult to apply "actual TGM" or "literal TGM" to the golf swing given our advanced understanding of it. A breakthrough in the 1960s? You bet. Kelley gets all the credit in the world from me for that. But it's not really advanced and we're 40+ years down the tracks. We've learned, and at this point, TGM is good for the vocabulary but little else in my opinion.

[poser]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree that it can. If anything TGM places too much emphasis on maintaining a constant RFFW and/or sustaining the flat left wrist too long.

But in the end, I kind of see that as irrelevant. I know you're just moving up in the TGM hierarchy and all that, but TGM is on its way out. 60 or 70% of the book should be re-written, and it's increasingly more and more difficult to apply "actual TGM" or "literal TGM" to the golf swing given our advanced understanding of it. A breakthrough in the 1960s? You bet. Kelley gets all the credit in the world from me for that. But it's not really advanced and we're 40+ years down the tracks. We've learned, and at this point, TGM is good for the vocabulary but little else in my opinion.

Uh O is this turning into the Brian Manzella flip and cast 150+ page thread.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by poser

Uh O is this turning into the Brian Manzella flip and cast 150+ page thread.

Yeah, except this pre-dates his "discovery" by awhile. :-)

And there's this... http://thesandtrap.com/t/53131/lag-too-much-of-a-good-thing

[mvmac]

From flying wedge to palmar flexion

[poser]

Man everyone is jumping on the flip release now I guess.  So much for the TGM and stack and tilt books.  I know everyone loves Fred Couples swing but, i hate that underflip release

[iacas]

Originally Posted by poser

Man everyone is jumping on the flip release now I guess.  So much for the TGM and stack and tilt books.  I know everyone loves Fred Couples swing but, i hate that underflip release

Flat left wrist matters at impact. This thread dates back to February and you'll note that it comes from some people who are pretty well versed in TGM and S&T; and so on (Dave, James, and myself, that is... and Mike a bit too).