Getting your hands ahead and getting more shaft lean at impact

[Tom]

take an alignment rod. grind one end down into a sharp point. stick the sharp end into the hole on the grip end of your club.

drill 1.

begin CHIPPING the club as you would normally with the rod sticking out at least two - three feet. KEY: do not let the stick jab you in the side.

drill 2.

begin swinging the club as you would normally with the rod sticking out at one foot. KEY: do not let the stick jab you in the side.

look at me using this drill...

[iacas]

This drill can work but there are better ways. If your weight isn't forward enough doing this becomes difficult, and if your weight is forward but incorrectly (upper body forward), then you'll be able to do this every time but still have a lousy motion.

Please be careful when giving advice - you've got to say who it's for, what the pitfalls can be, etc.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by iacas

This drill can work but there are better ways.

interesting. you say "there are better ways" but you don't offer anything...

anything i post you seem always to have issue with...

i know you're a proponent of stand and tilt...

first... on another post you throw up some comparison pix of me and some other golfer(s).  then you come over here and pounce on me again.

1. i don't know who the golfers in the photos are, and what situation they're in. are they standing and tilting? i don't know, nor do i care.

2. i'm simply showing a drill here... my photos are not taken in a tournament where i have to do a complete swing.. like the photos you posted. if i were, my swing would be quite different. instead, i'm in my garage in front of a net doing a DRILL... give me a break dude.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

interesting. you say "there are better ways" but you don't offer anything...

You know, you're probably right. In my 18,000 posts or so here I've never offered anything.

That was sarcasm, btw... I offered something - things to look out for when people do your stick drill. It can cause a bigger problem in the swing than it can solve, and in my experience, often does.

Originally Posted by Tom

anything i post you seem always to have issue with... i know you're a proponent of stand and tilt...

I've never heard of stand and tilt (and I suspect you're intentionally spelling it wrong, but I also bet you don't really understand it well at all). And I'm engaging you in a discussion, just as you're free to engage me. You offered a drill without any reasons as to why, who should use the drill, what the drill can solve, the pitfalls to watch out for when using the drill. I provided a sprinkling of those.

Originally Posted by Tom

first... on another post you throw up some comparison pix of me and some other golfer(s).  then you come over here and pounce on me again.

I disagree with the characterization that I've "pounced." I'm asking you to clarify and am demonstrating some things I'd call flaws with your own swing and reasoning. No, they're not under tournament conditions, but if you can't achieve a good position when doing a drill why should I assume it would improve under tournament conditions?

Originally Posted by Tom

1. i don't know who the golfers in the photos are, and what situation they're in. are they standing and tilting? i don't know, nor do i care.

Okay. Charlie Wi and Tiger Woods, btw. Both push their hips forward and UP quite a bit. So did Ben Hogan. And virtually every other professional golfer.

Originally Posted by Tom

2. i'm simply showing a drill here... my photos are not taken in a tournament where i have to do a complete swing.. like the photos you posted. if i were, my swing would be quite different. instead, i'm in my garage in front of a net doing a DRILL... give me a break dude.

Drills can be harmful if misapplied, done incorrectly, etc. You should take that into account.

[Tom]

ok. time for me to speak up. from previous experience i know that you are interested in promoting something... your website, your golf affiliation, stack and tilt, lessons.. whatever. you've never once just let my posts be without a dissenting comment. every time i post something you come around and essentially say, and i am paraphrasing here, "you're not right, i am."

perhaps you lurk around and find golfers with exceptionally low handicaps, then when they post something that may help someone you jump in with $.02 in hopes of silently advertising something? heck i don't know, but i am tired of it. i need to just go over to the "other" forum and stay there because there's not some parasitic imperative to denigrate people who obviously have something good and legitimate to say.

the title of MY post is "getting your hands ahead and getting more shaft lean at impact." i provided a very good drill that will help a golfer "feel" this sensation probably more than any other drill that exists. And, drills are just that... something that will help ingrain a sense or what to do. ever heard of a "marching drill" or howzabout a "Drill Sergeant"? these two "drill" things help ingrain a sense of what to do.

i was once a beginning golfer. my low round this season is 65 (several 66s, etc.,). i know what the things are that make a good golfer good consistently and what will keep a bad golfer bad consistently. this drill is something that has helped me immensely.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

This drill can work but there are better ways.

Can you elaborate or give/point to an example?  This issue (lack of shaft lean, flipping at the ball) is one of the biggest problems with my swing and it's tough trying to engineer a drill myself at the range.  So far I have been unsuccessful.

Brandon

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

from previous experience i know that you are interested in promoting something... your website, your golf affiliation, stack and tilt, lessons.. whatever. you've never once just let my posts be without a dissenting comment. every time i post something you come around and essentially say, and i am paraphrasing here, "you're not right, i am."

I think you're paraphrasing badly.

There's a lot of bad information out there. Yours isn't bad, but it's incomplete. This drill has helped you tremendously, but you have to realize that feels aren't the same for two people, and even if they were, people have different problems. Consider those things when giving tips.

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking you questions about your tips. Why shouldn't you have to defend what you've written or what you're telling people to do?

This is an equal opportunity forum - you're welcome to and encouraged to participate in any of the threads I start or say something in. Go ahead - I can defend my theories, and if you catch me in something that can be improved upon, great. I'll change.

But that's not what you choose to do when you simply tell me "you don't offer anything."

If I'm promoting anything it's discussion and debate. I'm a student of the game.

Originally Posted by Tom

heck i don't know, but i am tired of it.

I'm sorry to hear that. Everyone might have learned something. That rarely occurs without discussion. I don't see what's wrong with asking you to go a bit farther and to defend yourself and your ideas. I like it when people challenge things I've said. Either they'll learn more or I'll learn more (or we both will).

But if you want to take your ball and go home, I can't stop you.

Originally Posted by Tom

the title of MY post is "getting your hands ahead and getting more shaft lean at impact." i provided a very good drill that will help a golfer "feel" this sensation probably more than any other drill that exists.

Here's one of the problems: a golfer doing this drill might get their shaft leaning forward, but if they do so with their head moving forwards too, the drill could do more harm than good. That's one of many things you probably don't consider because "it worked for you." I'm glad it worked for you. Good job. But again your "feel" may not translate exactly the same to others. You may not have the same background, the same flaws...

Are other people not allowed to comment in YOUR threads?

You're more than welcome and again encouraged to comment in mine.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Can you elaborate or give/point to an example?  This issue (lack of shaft lean, flipping at the ball) is one of the biggest problems with my swing and it's tough trying to engineer a drill myself at the range.  So far I have been unsuccessful.

Start a thread somewhere and we'll see what's causing you to flip. Video will help.

[Harmonious]

I think Tom has a lot to offer, whether he is a teaching pro or whatever is irrelevant.  Heck, Erik, you weren't a teaching pro until recently.  Surely, you had some good ideas before you became one, too.

I, for one, like to hear what players at the top level (and a +2.2 is about as top level as it gets around here) feel has worked for them.  Not saying it would work for me, or for everyone, but why not let others have the opportunity to provide their ideas?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think Tom has a lot to offer, whether he is a teaching pro or whatever is irrelevant.  Heck, Erik, you weren't a teaching pro until recently.  Surely, you had some good ideas before you became one, too.

He probably does. But he's going to need to be able to defend his theories and he has to realize that not everyone's going to "get it" from watching one guy make a swing. I've spent a lot of time not only understanding the geometry, physics, and biomechanics of the golf swing but how to teach it effectively. I'm asking him to consider the same. I don't think that's a bad thing. You hound me everywhere around this forum, Harmonious - and I appreciate it because I have to think and respond when you're asking questions.

If Tom is capable of doing so, I'd love to see it.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I, for one, like to hear what players at the top level (and a +2.2 is about as top level as it gets around here) feel has worked for them.  Not saying it would work for me, or for everyone, but why not let others have the opportunity to provide their ideas?

I'm glad to have him share his ideas. I'd like it if he was happy to explain them with more detail or to otherwise engage in conversation. He might learn, I might learn, and others reading along or asking their own questions might learn. It's as simple as that.

P.S. I asked one question - I asked him to clarify - and showed two pictures in this thread . I don't really see what's so evil about that.

[Zeph]

My problem with this drill is that it can cause issues in other parts of your swing. The hands ahead at impact may look good, but if you look at your head movement and secondary axis tilt, it is not what you want it to be. If you are able to do this drill and prevent it from causing problems like that in the swing, great, but beware of the pitfalls. I've tried the same drill myself and had the same issues as you with the upper body movement. The problem is of course the stick going out the end of your grip. You really don't want to stab yourself with it, which can cause bad moves somewhere in the swing. It obviously worked great for Tom, which is good, I'm glad he posted it, but a part of telling others about a drill that works for you is to explain what trouble you can encounter with it.

That is one of the challenges when using drills. You obviously have to find a drill that works for solving your problem, but you want to make sure it doesn't mess up something else in the progress. Upper body moving forward is something I also do when I try to get the hands in front of the ball. If I don't watch that movement, it'll result in other parts of my swing getting worse by using a drill.

Hands forward at impact is a crucial part of becoming a better golfer, but also very difficult. One of the drills I've found most helpful so far is imagining the ball is a nail I'm going to hammer into the ground with the clubhead at the angle of attack when the club comes down. I want to feel the club hit the ball and then feel it go through the ground after. This is a mental drill, but in my case the flipping is all a mental issue of trying to hit the ball. It can still cause me to move the head forward, so I have to be careful and check it every now and then. Looking an inch or two in front of the ball also works pretty well when trying to find the correct feeling. The Pure Ball Striker is a training aid that can help with this too, though they seem to be having trouble delivering lately.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by iacas

"...But he's going to need to be able to defend his theories and he has to realize that not everyone's going to "get it" from watching one guy make a swing."

"...I'm asking him to consider the same"

If Tom is capable of doing so, I'd love to see it.

"...I'm glad to have him share his ideas. I'd like it if he was happy to explain them with more detail or to otherwise engage in conversation."

i didn't realize your were a "teaching pro", but as i posted.... i suspected you derive income from your "advice." you espouse stack and tilt and ANYTHING posted from me (or probably guys like me who have a "touring professional game") is threatening so you come out with "oh, you'd better watch out for that drill because..." come on there isacas... leave me alone... i don't care anything about stack and tilt. i'm not going to come around and follow you asking you to defend your "theories" or whatever they are. but, then again i don't derive monetary benefit from doing so. if i did, perhaps i would.

for all you guys who are reading this...

focus on impact. that's what matters. at impact there are really three imperatives:

1. your left ear should not go in front of the ball. why? because it has been shown that when the head gets in front of the ball, so will the spine. who cares? well, when the spine gets in front of the ball, you WILL cast your hands (early release). who cares? you will have lost majority of your lag. who cares? lag provides the power of the golf swing. what does that matter? ever have a drive that was 40yds ahead of where you normally hit it, and you seemed to have swung slower, but had no idea what you did? well, you had more lag and the ball went further. what else does lag almost certainly guarantee? a) that you won't hit it fat b) that you will have a better turn c) that you will take a GREAT divot 3"-4" in front of the ball d) that the ball will fly truer on your target line (or if you were set up for a draw, that the ball will draw).

2. at impact your hands should be in front of the ball by as much as possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc.,

3. once the ball is struck have your hands remain ahead of the shaft with as much forward shaft lean for as long a period of time as is possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc.,

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Zeph

"My problem with this drill is that it can cause issues in other parts of your swing."

"Hands forward at impact is a crucial part of becoming a better golfer, but also very difficult."

"The Pure Ball Striker is a training aid that can help with this too, though they seem to be having trouble delivering lately."

Zeph,

unless you get your hands consistently more forward the other parts of your swing won't/don't matter [to score]. in fact, i wouldn't think about other parts of your swing until you are able to get your hands more consistently forward. once you've done this i bet two things will happen. 1) your scores will be in the low seventies on great ball striking days and and you'll shoot in the sixties when your putter comes alive 2) you will no longer care about the other parts of your swing.

if you have problems with this drill try these three...

drill a: take a whisk broom. grab it half way down the handle. stand to a ball that is on a tee. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot effectively get the ball off the tee unless you have your hands forward at impact.

drill b: get a small piece of wood (1" x 2"). tee a ball up 1/2" and when you get more efficient, don't tee the ball up. put the piece of wood 2" behind the ball. stand to the ball. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot hit the ball without also clipping the wood unless you have your hands forward at impact.

drill c: get a can of spray paint. at your golf course's practice area, paint a line on the ground about two feet long and let the paint dry for a minute or two. place a ball on the front of the line you've painted. hit the ball. your goal is to hit the ball without also taking ANY paint. you cannot do this unless you have your hands forward at impact. (when gary player was young he used this drill, only instead of paint he used a very small rope, perhaps a string.)

btw, i've tried a pure ball striker. it's a novel thing. but just something someone has dreamt of to make you part with your cash. drill b and c above will ingrain what you need to have any of your clubs be a pure ball striker. drill a is something that will absolutely positively get your hands looking like a tour pro at impact. don't believe me? get your video camera, set it up and video yourself swinging the broom. it's going to look funny to you, but all you care about is "what do my hands look like at impact and beyond?" the video will scare you and you'll immediately think "why do i care about the other parts of my swing..."

good luck.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

you espouse stack and tilt and ANYTHING posted from me (or probably guys like me who have a "touring professional game") is threatening so you come out with "oh, you'd better watch out for that drill because..." come on there isacas... leave me alone... i don't care anything about stack and tilt. i'm not going to come around and follow you asking you to defend your "theories" or whatever they are. but, then again i don't derive monetary benefit from doing so. if i did, perhaps i would.

Tom, you seem to view me as the only aggressor here, but consider the words you're using and the things you've said as well.

I don't know what a "touring professional game" is, but I don't think you know much about what I believe or teach. And I've put a lot of time in here on this site helping people without any real "monetary benefit" but simply out of a desire to help people.

Since you seem to view anything I say as confrontational then I'll stop responding to your threads for awhile. You've got free reign to post your videos and answer questions. Good luck, and have a good day.

[Zeph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

1. your left ear should not go in front of the ball.

I'd rather say don't move the head laterally. You can move the head forward and ruin the secondary axis tilt without getting the left ear in front of the ball.

Originally Posted by Tom

2. at impact your hands should be in front of the ball by as much as possible

Agreed, as long as you keep the upper body still. This give you a natural limit on how far in front of the ball you will get the hands. Inside of the left thigh is a common spot for pros. If you focus too much on getting them forward, the head can start moving forward and things can go the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Tom

3. once the ball is struck have your hands remain ahead of the shaft with as much forward shaft lean for as long a period of time as is possible

Driving the hands in front of the clubhead, pretty much the same stuff as number two. The longer you maintain the right arm flying wedge, the less you flip and usually the greater results you get.

Originally Posted by Tom

in fact, i wouldn't think about other parts of your swing until you are able to get your hands more consistently forward.

I agree that hands in front of the ball at impact is imperative, but I don't want to put it first in line. I'm currently moving my head forward a lot to try getting the hands more ahead, which will only make things more difficult. So I'd rather give myself a good foundation with a stationary head and from there work on getting the hands in front. I've had lots of swing issues that makes it impossible to get the hands in front. Which is why I don't want to focus on the hands itself right away, but something else that will help with the hands later on.

Originally Posted by Tom

drill a: take a whisk broom. grab it half way down the handle. stand to a ball that is on a tee. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot effectively get the ball off the tee unless you have your hands forward at impact.

Tried this drill and it messed so much with the rest of my swing that I don't want to do it.

Originally Posted by Tom

drill b: get a small piece of wood (1" x 2"). tee a ball up 1/2" and when you get more efficient, don't tee the ball up. put the piece of wood 2" behind the ball. stand to the ball. swing at it with your golf swing. you cannot hit the ball without also clipping the wood unless you have your hands forward at impact.

I'd do it if I had a driving range with grass. :-D

The idea is good though, one I recommend to everyone when practicing on the range. The line can help as a visual aid you want to avoid.

Originally Posted by Tom

drill c: get a can of spray paint. at your golf course's practice area, paint a line on the ground about two feet long and let the paint dry for a minute or two. place a ball on the front of the line you've painted. hit the ball. your goal is to hit the ball without also taking ANY paint. you cannot do this unless you have your hands forward at impact.

Another good concept, but I've used a different version. A thin wooden plate or towel right behind the ball, don't like teeing the ball up when practicing. The drill hasn't proved to be very useful however. I'm a bigger fan of looking in front of the ball or trying to get the hands in front of it quickly.

Originally Posted by Tom

drill a is something that will absolutely positively get your hands looking like a tour pro at impact.

Already did this and you're right, the hands were far ahead of the clubhead. The reason I don't use it, like I've said is that it mess up the rest of my swing. Judging by the video you posted, you seem to have the same problem, but you are perhaps able to ignore that stuff and get it right again when not doing the drill. I just don't like doing drills that makes some parts of my swing worse.

When it comes to the arguing in here, why can't we focus on the golf instead? Erik simply pointed out some issues you experienced with the drill, and I agree with him. It is important to know what problems a drill can cause before spending hours ingraining them. Just because it's worked for you doesn't mean it'll work for everyone else. As a low handicapper, you know more about this stuff than most golfers, but along comes the responsibility to know what the drill can cause.

[johnthejoiner]

At the end of the video Martin Hall uses a similar training aid, but his is about 4 inches out side the shaft. There must be a point when the hands get too far in front ?

[Dblackjack70]

Originally Posted by Tom

i didn't realize your were a "teaching pro", but as i posted.... i suspected you derive income from your "advice." you espouse stack and tilt and ANYTHING posted from me (or probably guys like me who have a "touring professional game") is threatening so you come out with "oh, you'd better watch out for that drill because..." come on there isacas... leave me alone... i don't care anything about stack and tilt. i'm not going to come around and follow you asking you to defend your "theories" or whatever they are. but, then again i don't derive monetary benefit from doing so. if i did, perhaps i would.

for all you guys who are reading this...

focus on impact. that's what matters. at impact there are really three imperatives:

1. your left ear should not go in front of the ball. why? because it has been shown that when the head gets in front of the ball, so will the spine. who cares? well, when the spine gets in front of the ball, you WILL cast your hands (early release). who cares? you will have lost majority of your lag. who cares? lag provides the power of the golf swing. what does that matter? ever have a drive that was 40yds ahead of where you normally hit it, and you seemed to have swung slower, but had no idea what you did? well, you had more lag and the ball went further. what else does lag almost certainly guarantee? a) that you won't hit it fat b) that you will have a better turn c) that you will take a GREAT divot 3"-4" in front of the ball d) that the ball will fly truer on your target line (or if you were set up for a draw, that the ball will draw).

2. at impact your hands should be in front of the ball by as much as possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc.,

3. once the ball is struck have your hands remain ahead of the shaft with as much forward shaft lean for as long a period of time as is possible. why? well, for one, this will be a result of having lagged the club down into the ball. and because this will provide the descending blow that we covet in the golf swing. this will compress the ball. hitting down causes a truer ball flight. when a ball struck in this manner flies to the target it will stop close to or on it's landing place, etc.,

I started reading this post while doing some research for one of my students.  There is a lot of good valuable information here but there are some vital things missing that enables you to perform 1, 2 and 3.  The only way this can be done correctly is for the lower body, hips and legs to initiate the downswing and be in the correct impact position before any of this happens.  Lag, shaft lean whatever you want to call it is created by the lower body leading.  So for you that are trying to do this, work on getting your feet, legs and hips to lead the downswing before you move anything else.

[Th3R00st3r]

Originally Posted by iacas

....

P.S. I asked one question - I asked him to clarify - and showed two pictures in this thread. I don't really see what's so evil about that.

The good thing to come out of these discussions, whether wanted or not, is that I learned some new drills because of the link provided by iacas. I may not have stumbled on this one unless this discussion happened. So, you see, good things came out of iacas prodding you for more information intsead of just leaving you alone. You shouldn't take the inquiries personally.