Tom Wishon on being fit for clubs

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by Shagbag

But you and others will continue to purchase this equipment because these companies spend millions of dollars a year in promotions and advertising to convince you to do so.

QTF!!

[LankyLefty]

I have nothing against club fitting as an Idea. In practice though it is overpriced and over valued. To some people playing with unfit clubs is like playing without a putter.

Im not against fitting.

I'm against the highly commercialized and heavily marketing influenced hack job that fitting has become. People like Tom Wishon and many many many others come along to the golf masses most of which are casual players, who play once a week or less and would like nothing better then to hear "Its not you its your clubs!!!" from someone who appears to be an authority on the topic and feed them this load of crap. They make fitting out to be a science like process where some fancy computer and math figures out the optimal club so you can hit the sweet spot every time. Not only is it simply not true It is complete rip.

If I'm 6 foot 8 I don't need to pay some jackass $150 to tell me I need longer clubs.

The only thing club fitting and shoes have in common to me is that in shoes, like golf clubs, most people fit what they keep in stock at the store but if your a really odd size you might need to order special. Also like golf, if you are a competitive runner competing at the highest level against the best in the world where hundredths of seconds matter then you might go out and get some custom shoes. However the average runner even those who are very serious and run local charity marathons ect. just buy the best you can get at a store and cant tell the difference.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

I have nothing against club fitting as an Idea. In practice though it is overpriced and over valued. To some people playing with unfit clubs is like playing without a putter.

Im not against fitting.

I'm against the highly commercialized and heavily marketing influenced hack job that fitting has become. People like Tom Wishon and many many many others come along to the golf masses most of which are casual players, who play once a week or less and would like nothing better then to hear "Its not you its your clubs!!!" from someone who appears to be an authority on the topic and feed them this load of crap. They make fitting out to be a science like process where some fancy computer and math figures out the optimal club so you can hit the sweet spot every time. Not only is it simply not true It is complete rip.

If I'm 6 foot 8 I don't need to pay some jackass $150 to tell me I need longer clubs.

The only thing club fitting and shoes have in common to me is that in shoes, like golf clubs, most people fit what they keep in stock at the store but if your a really odd size you might need to order special. Also like golf, if you are a competitive runner competing at the highest level against the best in the world where hundredths of seconds matter then you might go out and get some custom shoes. However the average runner even those who are very serious and run local charity marathons ect. just buy the best you can get at a store and cant tell the difference.

So, let me get this straight, other than the fact that it's an overpriced, over valued, heavily commercialized, marketing influenced load of crap that is a complete rip off -- you have nothing against club fitting?

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

I have nothing against club fitting as an Idea. In practice though it is overpriced and over valued. To some people playing with unfit clubs is like playing without a putter.

Im not against fitting.

I'm against the highly commercialized and heavily marketing influenced hack job that fitting has become. People like Tom Wishon and many many many others come along to the golf masses most of which are casual players, who play once a week or less and would like nothing better then to hear "Its not you its your clubs!!!" from someone who appears to be an authority on the topic and feed them this load of crap. They make fitting out to be a science like process where some fancy computer and math figures out the optimal club so you can hit the sweet spot every time. Not only is it simply not true It is complete rip.

If I'm 6 foot 8 I don't need to pay some jackass $150 to tell me I need longer clubs.

The only thing club fitting and shoes have in common to me is that in shoes, like golf clubs, most people fit what they keep in stock at the store but if your a really odd size you might need to order special. Also like golf, if you are a competitive runner competing at the highest level against the best in the world where hundredths of seconds matter then you might go out and get some custom shoes. However the average runner even those who are very serious and run local charity marathons ect. just buy the best you can get at a store and cant tell the difference.

This...... from a 22 HC. Makes sense now.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

This...... from a 22 HC.    Makes sense now.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

I have nothing against club fitting as an Idea. In practice though it is overpriced and over valued. To some people playing with unfit clubs is like playing without a putter.

Im not against fitting.

I'm against the highly commercialized and heavily marketing influenced hack job that fitting has become. People like Tom Wishon and many many many others come along to the golf masses most of which are casual players, who play once a week or less and would like nothing better then to hear "Its not you its your clubs!!!" from someone who appears to be an authority on the topic and feed them this load of crap. They make fitting out to be a science like process where some fancy computer and math figures out the optimal club so you can hit the sweet spot every time. Not only is it simply not true It is complete rip.

If I'm 6 foot 8 I don't need to pay some jackass $150 to tell me I need longer clubs.

For someone who doesn't have anything against custom fitting you seem to make some pretty strong comments to the contrary.  Custom fitting is not a cure all for one's golf game.  There's no sustitute for practice and solid swing fundamentals.  I don't think Wishon has ever said "It's not you, it's your clubs!!!"

Any clubmaker who promises you that all you need are clubs that fit is probably not anyone you'd want to do business with.  Solid swing fundamentals learned through practice and experience is the only way anyone is going to hit the sweet spot everytime.  But I'd like to know my equipment is optimized and "working" for me, not "against" me when I do hit the sweet spot. A true custom fitting can enhance anyone's game and provide consistency.  There is much more to custom fitting than figuring out someone might need longer clubs.

Others have said people can do pretty good picking up softball bats, hockey sticks, etc right off the shelf.  That's not really an accurate comparison...this equipment is available right off the rack custom fit to a great extent (don't bats have different handle sizes, overall weight, length, etc).  There's more options available because only one instrument is needed to play that sport.  A set of major manufacturer golf clubs could be assembled with hundreds of different options, yet you get very limited options off the shelf and perhaps a few more options if custom fitting is offered.  Major companies can't manufacture hundreds of variations of the same product, it's not cost effective.

If my car's not tuned, I get 18 mpg....if it's tuned and optimized I get 23.  Not a huge difference, but it all adds up.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Shagbag

Others have said people can do pretty good picking up softball bats, hockey sticks, etc right off the shelf.  That's not really an accurate comparison...this equipment is available right off the rack custom fit to a great extent (don't bats have different handle sizes, overall weight, length, etc).  There's more options available because only one instrument is needed to play that sport.  A set of major manufacturer golf clubs could be assembled with hundreds of different options, yet you get very limited options off the shelf and perhaps a few more options if custom fitting is offered.  Major companies can't manufacture hundreds of variations of the same product, it's not cost effective.

Pro ball players don't buy their equipment off the rack. Everything is custom made or custom ordered. Even amateurs can be particular about the way they prep their bats, gloves, shoes, etc for play, if it still doesn't feel right they might move onto another batch.

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Pro ball players don't buy their equipment off the rack. Everything is custom made or custom ordered. Even amateurs can be particular about the way they prep their bats, gloves, shoes, etc for play, if it still doesn't feel right they might move onto another batch.

I never said pro ball players didn't use custom ordered equipment.  My point was there are many more options available off the shelf for baseball bats than there are for golf equipment.  When I played baseball and softball I had many options available right off the rack...not so with golf equipment.  So the basis of the post was any option is available for golf equipment through custom fitting.

[Clambake]

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Shagbag

I never said pro ball players didn't use custom ordered equipment.  My point was there are many more options available off the shelf for baseball bats than there are for golf equipment.  When I played baseball and softball I had many options available right off the rack...not so with golf equipment.  So the basis of the post was any option is available for golf equipment through custom fitting.

What some people are saying is that there is a ton of selection in off the rack golf clubs and that the average golfer could play off the rack the equipment and shoot the exact same scores (if not better).

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Pot, meet kettle.

At least I'm not here saying how ridiculous it is that, oh, Steve Jobs is an idiot because he thinks he's the authority on personal digital music devices, or why I think Warren Buffet is a moron for claiming to be an authority on value investing.  He is the authority, and only a fool would think or say otherwise.  I've invested in Warren Buffet for a couple decades because what he said made sense, and he has proven himself to me.  If I stood up at the annual get together in Omaha and shouted "You all are lemmings for believing in and following this clown" I'm sure I would never be seen or heard from again!

I certainly feel there is value in a detailed fitting.  And I'll leave it up to those that have an intimate knowledge and three decades of experience of the process to help guide my way of thinking, as my HC and level of play certainly can't back it up.  Has my play improved as a result of being fitted?  Absolutely!  My swing didn't suddenly change overnight, so I have to point to the one thing that did change.

If y'all don't want to spend $50 to get fitted, it's no skin off my butt, and I could care less.  But I can only chuckle at those that seem so adamantly against it, especially those that go to such great lengths to dispute the relevance of comparing shoes and golf clubs.  Man oh man, I sure wouldn't want to be their spouses!  I can only imaging the conversations in those houses!

The other thing that makes me chuckle, and I was warned of this when I first started playing, is that the marketing departments of the big names have earned their salaries.  To tell someone that a club built from Maltby/Wishon/Acer/Snake Eyes/etc components could perform as well or even better than their XXXX driver would be blasphemy!  "There's no way, man!!!!  Callaway is the #1 irons in golf!!"  But I've seen this in my other hobbies too (hot rodding, firearms, motorcycles), so I'm used to it, even though it still makes me laugh.  Some folks can't seem to come to grips that something/someone they never heard of could possibly build anything better than their name brand possession.

What the hell, let's all just weld pieces of flat bar to some 1/2" round bar and go shoot a 78!

FWIW, I'm no Wishon groupie, having only heard and read about the guy on the net here and there until I bought this book on a recommendation.  From an engineering standpoint (that's how I make a living), everything he says makes perfect sense.  I'm guessing most of the detractors have not read the book, or any similar book.  It goes waaaaay beyond lie board checks and launch monitors.

[newtogolf]

I don't think anyone would argue that there's value in detailed fitting.  I've read both his books and in both, Wishon attacks the major manufacturers in the golf industry for their methods of making and marketing golf clubs.  His books and writing style would lead one to believe he's a consumer advocate looking to protect us from the evil golf companies who manufacture golf clubs that no average golfer can hit.  The issue is he's not a consumer advocate, he's their competitor trying to discredit how they do business for his own personal gain.  The "message" becomes tainted when it's used for his own personal gain even if there's some validity to it.

The major manufacturers all endorse proper fitting, that's why they provide kits to stores and have vans to provide the service.  Wishon takes it a step further though by claiming not only is custom fitting required, but also custom clubs, which he happens to provide, seems a bit too self serving now.   I don't believe that average golfer will see much difference between their properly "fitted" (name of favorite off the shelf brand) clubs versus Wishons custom clubs.

As for who makes better clubs, I agree there's always the potential Wishon or any custom club maker can develop technology that trumps the major guys but long term they can't compete with the amount of money the big guys invest in R&D.;

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

I certainly feel there is value in a detailed fitting.  And I'll leave it up to those that have an intimate knowledge and three decades of experience of the process to help guide my way of thinking, as my HC and level of play certainly can't back it up.

If y'all don't want to spend $50 to get fitted, it's no skin off my butt, and I could care less.  But I can only chuckle at those that seem so adamantly against it, especially those that go to such great lengths to dispute the relevance of comparing shoes and golf clubs.  Man oh man, I sure wouldn't want to be their spouses!  I can only imaging the conversations in those houses!

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

. . . I certainly feel there is value in a detailed fitting . . . my HC and level of play certainly can't back it up.

That's all you needed to say right there. You had no grounds to insult another poster's opinion based on his index.

[dbwood]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

As for who makes better clubs, I agree there's always the potential Wishon or any custom club maker can develop technology that trumps the major guys but long term they can't compete with the amount of money the big guys invest in R&D.;

I don't know that I buy the idea that the "big guys" spend more on actual R&D; than Wishon or KZG does.  They like to project an image like they have a dozen engineers working at super computers feverishly trying to perfect the 6 iron, but I don't think that's what's really going on.  They certainly have more money, and they spend a great deal more on marketing.  The marketing dept is driving the bus over at the big guys houses, the engineers job is to incorporate the marketing ideas into the club and create the CAD drawings that the third party engineers at the foundries will need to bid the next "R-15" job or whatever.

Tom Wishon tells a story of one of the times he was doing work for one of the "big guys" and the company spent a large amount of money hiring an acoustics lab to help them with the sound on a driver, (it's an easy fix for anyone who knows how to build musical instruments).  So divisions in the big guys companies are willing to spend money on projects, I'm just not sure how much of it is spent delivering a product that helps golfers score better.

I use both Wishon and TaylorMade products and they both make high quality stuff.

[newtogolf]

Tom Wishon Golf Technologies is an LLC, so they aren't required to report financial data, but here is the most favorable information I could find;

Location Type	Single Location
Annual Sales (Estimated)	$1 to 2.5 million
Employees (Estimated)	10 to 19 8 **
Years in Business	8

Here are Callaways;

Currency in Millions of U.S. Dollars	As of:	Dec 31 2007 Restated USD	Dec 31 2008 Reclassified USD	Dec 31 2009 Reclassified USD	Dec 31 2010 USD	4-Year Trend
Revenues		1,124.6	1,117.2	950.8	967.7
TOTAL REVENUES		1,124.6	1,117.2	950.8	967.7
Cost of Goods Sold		622.5	617.7	600.9	589.3
GROSS PROFIT		502.1	499.5	349.9	378.3
Selling General & Admin Expenses, Total		371.0	373.3	342.1	346.2
R&D; Expenses		32.0	29.4	32.2	36.4
OTHER OPERATING EXPENSES, TOTAL		403.0	402.6	374.3	382.6

I'm sure the other big companies spend close to the same, but it's pretty clear that Callaway at least is spending 18x - 36x the total revenue of Wishon on R&D.;  I can't comment from the numbers what the money is spent on, or if it's productive, but the spend amounts are hugely different.  I've never said Wishon doesn't make good clubs, I've never tried them, so I can't comment on them.  I am skeptical that they are any better than what's available from major manufacturers.  Nor do I disagree with his statements about golfers needing to be properly fit for clubs.  My issue with him is the nature of his books and his attacks on the off the shelf golf manufacturers makes him appear as a consumer advocate when in reality he's just chosen a wordy way to trash his competition and promote his own business.

Originally Posted by dbwood

I don't know that I buy the idea that the "big guys" spend more on actual R&D; than Wishon or KZG does.  I use both Wishon and TaylorMade products and they both make high quality stuff.

[Krupp]

Who's to say when you get fitted at a certain time that your swing isn't going to change? Swings change over time so I don't understand getting fitted to a certain swing at a specific time. If your a 20 handicap (which most golfers are) you think their swing is going to be the same from day to day?

[LankyLefty]

I dont see what handicap has to do with any of this for anyone.

This is a debate started on a golf forum but it could be carried over to any number of genres or merchandise.

The basic thing that is offputting to me about Tom Wishon, outside of the fact that I do not agree with most of what he says, is that he writes as if he is an outside auditor evaluating the golf industry. He makes claims he cannot back up with empirical date or any sort of test cases.

His books are pure propaganda, his claims even if true are not backed up and not reviewed.

From His Own Website:

TWGT is committed to elevating the image of custom fit, custom built golf clubs which perform much better for golfers than heavily marketed brand name clubs which are mass produced to a standard specification and simply sold off the rack. The majority of our marketing efforts are aimed at educating consumer golfers about the superiority of custom fitting over standard made clubs.

He makes radical claims that he simply cannot back up. His books do the same. I understand that he is fighting to save his small niche in the golf world that is constantly under attack from the marketing departments of every major golf outfit but that doesn't change that his chosen method of doing so is through writing books that are written as if they are scientific or backed by research and testing but are in fact merely his opinion. His untested, unproven and totally unreviewed opinion.

[Shagbag]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

What some people are saying is that there is a ton of selection in off the rack golf clubs and that the average golfer could play off the rack the equipment and shoot the exact same scores (if not better).

There is a ton of golf equipment available right of the shelf, without a doubt.  Most of what is available is quality equipment as well, at least the designs from the major golf club companies anyway.  I don't Tom Wishon or any similar company who designs and developes custom components has or will ever try and dispute this fact.  I don't think any custom club maker would dispute the quality of the equipment available off the shelf either.  That's not the question here.

The vast majority of what is available is mass produced, companies manufacture hundreds, if not thousands of sets a day.  The majority of people who buy golf clubs will hit demo versions into a net before they buy.  Most of these buyers will buy the product in the box they come in.  Some will demand some sort of a fitting.  So, for instance, they will end up buying a set of irons 1/2" over the standard length, with an "R" shaft, with the lie angle 1° flat and a mid sized grip.  There are many scenarios for this type of purchase, with the buyer thinking he received a custom fitting.  Custom fittings are much more involved than being fit for length, flex, loft and grip size.  What I mean is the process of arriving at these options are more complex, with the resulting "options available" virtually unlimited.

I agree, you can't turn a 22 handicap into single digit player through custom fitting.  There is no substitute for solid swing fundamentals.  But the vast majority of amateur golfers fall into the 20 to 30 handicap range.  Most have swing flaws that will never change.  Some have swing flaws that will get better because they will work on their game.  Custom fitting offers so many variable options for the 20 to 30 handicapper  to "help" compensate for less than stellar swings ((notice I did not write "correct or fix" these flaws) .  These options can help to increase distance, enhance trajectory AND direction and promote a much better "feel".

I also agree better players (0 to 10 handicap) can well with almost any equipment.  But what makes you think low handicappers wouldn't benefit even more with a detailed custom fitting?  I don't think anyone who plays golf for a living does so with equipment right off the shelf.  There must be a reason for that.

Just my opinion...doesn't mean it's worth the time it took me to type it out to you.  It does to me, that's why I took the time.  I believe anyone can benefit from a quality custom fitting to some extent.  The process is generally less than the investment of what the major companies charge for their equipment right off the shelf.  That will vary of course as some club fitters do charge a pretty penny just for the fitting process, but there are many quality customer fitters who don't "charge" for the fitting process if a purchase is made.