Disqualification for Wrong Scorecard Signature: Is it fair?

[ipark1303]

What's your opinion on this issue?

Is it fair to disqualify a player for a wrong scorecard (especially if the mistake was unintentional?)

Don't you agree we need a more fair and updated ruling on this one?

I might suggest players to get E&O; (errors & omission) insurance!

[Q.Q.Quillume]

Yes, it's fair to disqualify a player for signing an incorrect scorecard.

[iacas]

Yes, it's fair to disqualify a player for signing an incorrect scorecard.

Agreed. Clearly it's fair - it's a rule. Thus, "fairness" isn't even a question.

[underparnv]

Agreed. Clearly it's fair - it's a rule. Thus, "fairness" isn't even a question.

While I agree that it's a rule and it should be followed, I think that the penalty is a bit harsh.

I do believe that there should be a pretty steep penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, but I don't think it should be a disqualification. Then again, I can see the other side of the fence on this one as well. The player has the responsibility to ensure they keep their own card (as well as their competitors). How difficult is that?? Oh well...so much for my first disagreement with Erik!

[iacas]

I do believe that there should be a pretty steep penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, but I don't think it should be a disqualification.

As the guy on Sports Reporters said this morning about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire in baseball: "cheating is like pregnancy: you can't cheat just a little bit."

Putting the wrong number down is one of the most basic things in golf. You put the right number down or you've cheated. Clearly we can't get into the "was it an honest mistake or not?" area - good rules are binary and without any grey areas.

[underparnv]

As the guy on Sports Reporters said this morning about Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire in baseball: "cheating is like pregnancy: you can't cheat just a little bit."

Good point. But why stop there? Why would the penalty for teeing in front of the tee markers be two strokes instead of a disqualification?

[cmarkmyers]

What about De Vicenzo at the Masters? He signed for a 66 when he actually shot a 65 and instead of going to a playoff he was stuck with second place. Now that is certainly better than a DQ but was it fair to golf and golf fans? Did the best player at the Masters actually win?

[EatDrinkSleepGolf]

What can't the PGA Tour staff tell the Pro right there in the trailer "Hey, I think your card is wrong, wanna recount it?"

[iacas]

Good point. But why stop there? Why would the penalty for teeing in front of the tee markers be two strokes instead of a disqualification?

Because the penalty for doing that is clearly outlined. If you do it enough times (gross misconduct) you can be disqualified. It's one of the few grey areas in golf, and of course at the professional level it is

never enforced (because nobody warrants it). Keeping the proper score is one of the basic responsibilities on a player. They alone are responsible for their score. It's a core concept as far as I'm concerned. We've had this discussion before, and I've been more thorough in those discussions. So if you want to keep discussing it with me, sorry, I'm out. I don't care to repeat myself.

What about De Vicenzo at the Masters? He signed for a 66 when he actually shot a 65 and instead of going to a playoff he was stuck with second place. Now that is certainly better than a DQ but was it fair to golf and golf fans? Did the best player at the Masters actually win?

Who cares about the fans? It was fair to De Vicenzo. Is it fair to fans that Phil Mickelson botched the 18th at Winged Foot? Maybe not - but it was within the rules.

Note that The Masters doesn't play under USGA rules by definition. They were free to change his card after the fact to reflect the score De Vicenzo actually shot. Bobby Jones himself made the final decision. You can question the moral character of a lot of people in modern and 20th century athletics, but Bobby Jones ain't one of 'em.

What can't the PGA Tour staff tell the Pro right there in the trailer "Hey, I think your card is wrong, wanna recount it?"

I think the official scorers in the tent don't know what players have shot. They're busy attending to official business, not watching a leaderboard or a broadcast.

Besides, as I said above, a player is responsible for their own score. So even if they knew I'd be against them saying anything as it opens a whole new set of doors: what if someone who doesn't like Tiger Woods fails to mention to him that he got a score wrong? Or Phil or Vijay or Sergio or "anyone but the top 50 in the world"? Or any other player? It opens the door to discrimination. And again, it's just silly: the player is responsible for their own score. It's one of the basic tenets of golf. I could argue that the whole honor system we have in golf is based on "keep your own score honestly."

[BigAl5150]

For all the millions of $$$ these guys play for on Tour, I don't think its too much to ask them to keep their correct score. I feel little pity if they can't do basic addition. DQ 'em.

[wachesawgolfer]

Keeping the proper score is one of the basic responsibilities on a player. They alone are responsible for their score. It's a core concept as far as I'm concerned.

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The same applies in match play. If the opponent asks your score, you have to give him correctly or lose the hole.

[jamesduncan]

What about De Vicenzo at the Masters? He signed for a 66 when he actually shot a 65 and instead of going to a playoff he was stuck with second place. Now that is certainly better than a DQ but was it fair to golf and golf fans? Did the best player at the Masters actually win?

yes it is fair, becuase the best player won the masters in this case. being the best also encompases knowing the rules fully and following them correctly. hope that makes sense. i do have to admit i love these "is it fair? type threads. not to pick on anyone, but for the life of me, i cant find anywhere where someone said golf was ment to be a fair game.

[underparnv]

yes it is fair, becuase the best player won the masters in this case.

Alright...you guys got me. It is definitely the player's responsibility to make sure their card is correct, and the penalty for signing an incorrect one should be a DQ...I will concede that.

However, on if golf should be a fair game. Why would handicaps be created if someone out there didn't want golf to be a fair game? My wife actually thinks handicaps (and the ESC...) are cheating and that you should have to play scratch at all times. And she shoots 100+!! (Her best round is 94...) Anyway, just thought I would throw that into the mix...

[jamesduncan]

handicaps are only used so that 2 players can play a match against each other at the same level on a given course.

they dont address trying to make the game itself fair. hope that make sense.

[allin]

I think these rules do need to be pretty cut and dried on the penalties. It is impossible to read someones mind and know what was innocent and what was intentional.

What I have a problem with is when the penalty is excessive (lost ball) in the fairway. I have this happen several times a year, or when there is a strong penalty for an action which did not have the possiblity of creating an advantage for the golfer. The Michelle Wie grass behind the ball penalty for example.

I have no problem with Mathew Goggins disqualification this weekend for an improper drop, but I do believe any such action should come before the next round or within 24 hours after a tournament, two days later is marginal. I know a pro should have known better, even I notoriously fuzzy on such things knew that one. I believe this is a significant contributor to slow play. Pros call for a ruling even when they believe they know the answer because of the risk. An equity rule needs to exist for tournaments where an official can suspend a penalty if no advantage was gained.

[jamesduncan]

personally, i think most people look at rules as hurting them and not helping them.

a strategic player knows how to "bend the rules" to his or her advantage, hence getting a ruling from an offical or playing 2 balls and getting a later ruling from the commitee.

again, for every day play, i dont think strict enforcement of some rules (like stroke and distance for a lost ball in the fairway) does anyone any good. Hence ESC. if you loose a ball like that, just pick up once you take double or triple or whatever your handicap allows to speed up play.

But in Tournament golf, knowing the rules throughly can really be an advantange.

Case in point: i was blown away after attending a Nationwide event this past season.

a player hit a pretty wild tee shot into a wooded area but with a cart path running thro it, giving a clearing to the hole. after a 4 minute search, at last minute someone found the ball wedged up against an old stump with weeds around it.

the player deemed the ball embedded and the rules officals aggreed with him. he dropped within his allowable distance and gave himself a clear shot to the green, and ended up making par.

for me that would have been the last thing to think about as i would have just assumed unplayable.

But now that i think about the rules helping me (instead of there to penalize me) i look at all my options, given within the rules, more more closely.

its a wierd mindset to easily describe. hence why i think knowing the rules is part of becoming a better player (not changing them)