slow play vs. bad play; also known as, can you be slower if you are good?

[Leftygolfer]

I'm kind of torn.  In one sense, I think if your really bad, why even keep a real score.  I think you should pick up to keep up with the group.  But I do admire his patience.  I'm not really sure.  I've personally been going through a really bad funk and I look similar to your buddy at times.  If I'm just totally F**king up the hole, hit a couple of toe shanks, I just pick up and go to the next tee.  I've done this a number of times and it helps me compose myself and hopefully play better.  But with your buddy, he'd be picking up every hole.  That isn't fair.  The fun in the game (or a big part) is putting, chipping, getting up and down, recovering.  I learn alot and really enjoy the short game.  If I didn't, I'd just go to the driving range.  The game to me is around the greens and beginners need to work/play that to get better.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Right, but thats the whole point.  Your desire to play faster is affecting his ability to play out his round.  Thats why its an interesting question. Again, why are you considering the other player's right to play faster rather than my playing partners right to play every stroke he paid for?  Don't they agree to accept things like that when they book a round at a public course?

The players with him are not an issue.  We know how slow he is and agree.  Its not a paired with a stranger situation.  The issue is why does certain players desire to go faster trump another players desire to play a full round, especially on a public course?

Let's say you're at the movies.  You get the jumbo size soda because, well, it's only $.50 more.  An hour into the movie you really need to use the restroom.  Do you yell up to the projection booth to have them pause the movie while you duck out to use the restroom?  After all, you have the right to watch every minute of the movie you paid for, don't you?  Why does everyone else's right to watch the movie without interruptions or undue delay trump your right to watch every minute of the movie?  Beyond that, why does the movie theater's desire to maintain a specific showtime schedule, with specific start and end times, trump your right to watch every minute of the movie that you, the customer, paid for?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by ochmude

Why does everyone else's right to watch the movie without interruptions or undue delay trump your right to watch every minute of the movie?  Beyond that, why does the movie theater's desire to maintain a specific showtime schedule, with specific start and end times, trump your right to watch every minute of the movie that you, the customer, paid for?

This is a good point, and I think it gets to the crux of the matter.  Etiquette, essentially, comes down to complying with shared expectations of a social group.  In the theater, the understanding is that the movie starts when it starts and runs until it reaches the end, and it is up to the viewer to be there on time and arrange to sit for the duration.  On the golf course, there are similar shared expectations about how long a round should take.

[sean_miller]

What if the OP's friends set a time limit for each hole. If they finish a hole early, the clock starts again for the next hole. If their time runs out, they ALL pick up and move to the next hole. By the end of the round they'll soon meet the team goals of < 4.25 hours and all 18 holes without picking up or being continually played through, and his goal of < 121 strokes.  Win win.

Originally Posted by zeg

This is a good point, and I think it gets to the crux of the matter.  Etiquette, essentially, comes down to complying with shared expectations of a social group.  In the theater, the understanding is that the movie starts when it starts and runs until it reaches the end, and it is up to the viewer to be there on time and arrange to sit for the duration.  On the golf course, there are similar shared expectations about how long a round should take.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Beyond that, why does the movie theater's desire to maintain a specific showtime schedule, with specific start and end times, trump your right to watch every minute of the movie that you, the customer, paid for?

I'm not sure the movie analogy works.  As you said here, the movie has a specific start and end time.  If there was a sign on the course saying "Five Hour Rounds Only" then you'd have a really good point - just like the movies, you know exactly going in how long it will be.  However, at this public course there is no posted time limit or anything.  Thats a big difference between the two analogies.

The underlying theme here is that there is just no guidance.  The most fun round I ever played was at TPC Louisiana on Memorial Day (it was *packed*) and took about 6 hours.  But I was with a great group, the time zoomed by and nobody really got upset as there wasn't one group holding it up.  So my point is how do you know if somebody is a jerk who has unrealistically fast expectations, or if you are too slow?  What is an acceptable round?  3 1/2?  4?  Does it vary by course?

Does it matter when you are playing a 4-5 hour round if its slow because you're bad or because you are a slow player?  Something tells me if my buddy was shanking everything but really playing fast, he'd *still* get crap from people behind us where he could play a slower round, but if he is playing a 76 round the people behind won't say anything.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I'm not sure the movie analogy works.  As you said here, the movie has a specific start and end time.  If there was a sign on the course saying "Five Hour Rounds Only" then you'd have a really good point - just like the movies, you know exactly going in how long it will be.  However, at this public course there is no posted time limit or anything.  Thats a big difference between the two analogies.

That would be a great way to know which courses to avoid - for example, one that would think a 5 hour round is A-OK!

[JoelCochran]

Actually, that would be an interesting idea: the USGA gives us Slope and Ratings, how about a Speed multiplier index?  If a course plays in 4:00 for a scratch golfer, it would conceivably play 4.5 - 5 for a mid-high handicapper, so there might be a 1.25 speed index.  I'd have to play with the numbers, but it might provide a guideline.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I'm not sure the movie analogy works.  As you said here, the movie has a specific start and end time.  If there was a sign on the course saying "Five Hour Rounds Only" then you'd have a really good point - just like the movies, you know exactly going in how long it will be.  However, at this public course there is no posted time limit or anything.  Thats a big difference between the two analogies.

The underlying theme here is that there is just no guidance.  The most fun round I ever played was at TPC Louisiana on Memorial Day (it was *packed*) and took about 6 hours.  But I was with a great group, the time zoomed by and nobody really got upset as there wasn't one group holding it up.  So my point is how do you know if somebody is a jerk who has unrealistically fast expectations, or if you are too slow?  What is an acceptable round?  3 1/2?  4?  Does it vary by course?

Does it matter when you are playing a 4-5 hour round if its slow because you're bad or because you are a slow player?  Something tells me if my buddy was shanking everything but really playing fast, he'd *still* get crap from people behind us where he could play a slower round, but if he is playing a 76 round the people behind won't say anything.

I feel an acceptable pace can be as slow as you wish to play without interfering with someone else's desired pace for more than one hole.  If you want to play a round in 6 hours (which I've done before...I'm a slow player), than feel free to do so.  You'd be wise to do so on an empty course during off-hours, though.  Once you look back and see that someone is waiting on you, you should finish up the hole then let them play through.  If there are more groups also waiting, then you should pick up your pace or pick up your ball.

I want to be clear that my views are not as such because I am a great player and hate to wait on hackers who take forever to play a hole.  Like I said above, I'm a slow player.  I'm slow because I stink to high heaven at golf right now and if I'm lucky I can break 110.  What I've found is that nothing screws up my game more than looking back at the tee and seeing a crowd forming because I'm taking so long.  If there's a gap in front of me and a crowd right behind me, I am EXTREMELY aware of it and feel very pressured.  As a result, my game goes in the toilet.  When it comes right down to it, I do my best to keep pace for the sake of my own game, not for anyone else.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

[...] However, at this public course there is no posted time limit or anything.  Thats a big difference between the two analogies.

The underlying theme here is that there is just no guidance. [...] What is an acceptable round?  3 1/2?  4?  Does it vary by course?

Does it matter when you are playing a 4-5 hour round if its slow because you're bad or because you are a slow player?  Something tells me if my buddy was shanking everything but really playing fast, he'd *still* get crap from people behind us where he could play a slower round, but if he is playing a 76 round the people behind won't say anything.

An acceptable speed seems to vary by region, time of year, and even course-to-course.  At some heavily crowded courses, 5-6 hour rounds seem to be accepted---nobody likes it, but the course runs that speed so you're unlikely to get extra grief because you'll be keeping up.  My perception, mostly based on reading this and other forums, is that about 4.5 hours is the slowest speed that is widely accepted as fast enough.  The 9-hole courses I play at, both about 3000 yards, have posted pace recommendations of just over 4 hours for a foursome.

Like any etiquette issue that varies from place-to-place, you probably ought to just ask what's acceptable, probably at the clubhouse before you go out.  Hopefully they can give you some idea, and it will help be sure you don't get grief from the course operators.  Still might frustrate other players, but that's more a reflection of someone else's poor etiquette (i.e., impatience) than if you were just ignoring the pace issue.

On your last point, no, it shouldn't matter.  Pace is pace.  You're right, though, that you'll probably get less understanding from other players if you don't play as well.  That's just an unfortunate part of reality.

Remember, though, that etiquette is about respecting those around you and, as I like to think about it, taking less for yourself than you might be entitled to take.  The purpose is to help everyone have a pleasant experience, and everyone does need to make an effort for it to work.  Everyone "sacrifices" a bit for the sake of the group.  For a new or unskilled player, that may mean not sticking rigorously to the rules until they can play at a decent pace.  For the speed demons, that means understanding that they'll have to wait for their shots when the course is crowded and doing so politely.  For a system like this to work, everyone has to be a bit gracious and a bit generous---take a bit less from and give a bit more to the collective good, so that when something goes wrong there's a surplus.

Unfortunately, this is at odds with human nature, so inevitably someone decides that their own needs are important enough that they'll take *everything* they're entitled to, damnit.  While that may improve the situation for the ones taking that hard line, the overall experience for all the players gets worse...

[Latin Snake]

IMHO The guy has to win his ropes in the driving range and playing 9holes until he can start playing bogeys and double bogeys and good hitters c’mon if you’re willing to spend 5.5hour on a course at least wave through the groups behind you.

[hero12]

It is all about etiquite.  It isn't my place to tell somebody how fast to play, but they should have the respect for everybody else in the group to know when to pickup their ball.  On an open course, a foursome shouldn't be taking more than 5 hours for a round.  Somebody at 35+ handi should have the etiquite to play when it isn't busy or maybe at certain courses without much traffic.  I have no problem with slow play because that just means more time on a golf course enjoying the day, but if you suck pick up your ball.  If you don't suck but are doubling par on a whole, pickup your ball.  If your a 2 and doubling par on a whole, pick up your ball.  The op said that the guy played ready golf, so I don't see any reason to touch on time per shot.  I understand that they paid for a round of golf and are entitled to this, but they are also entitled to walk through your line on every green, talk during your backswing, or even play out of turn.  Don't even try to tell me this wouldn't bother you a little.

[funkyfred72]

I play with a guy who regularly shoots over 100.  He knows he is not that great and he doesn't waste time over shots.  So far this year we have not held anyone up or had to let anyone play through because of slow play, even when we played from the tips on a course over 7000 yards.

I don't care about the ability of players, as long as they don't slow things up for everyone else.  If you go out there and duff just about every shot and are not slow about it, fine.

[RayG]

I play with a guy who regularly shoots over 100.  He knows he is not that great and he doesn't waste time over shots.  So far this year we have not held anyone up or had to let anyone play through because of slow play, even when we played from the tips on a course over 7000 yards.

I don't care about the ability of players, as long as they don't slow things up for everyone else.  If you go out there and duff just about every shot and are not slow about it, fine.

No offense, but why would you make a guy that can't break 100 play from the tips?