slow play vs. bad play; also known as, can you be slower if you are good?

[johnclayton1982]

Hi All,

A situation occurred over my weekend round that got me thinking: do you need to have a minimum level of aptitutude to get out on the course?

This Saturday I played with my usual playing partners.  A fourth joined us who is a friend of ours.  He was awful.  He shot about a 150 probably, and played from the farthest forward tees.  Myself and my partners are usually in the 90s and grab a round in the 80s occasionally.  The course wasn't "crowded", only a few groups behind us.  The bad player never lost his temper, acted foolish, or anything, and was fun to play with.  He said he always tries to beat his best round, which was a 121.  He also didn't cheat, which is something I have yet to see in someone who scores as high as he does.

Here is the thing though: the guy wasn't slow in the usual sense.  He played ready golf, was always standing over his ball, and did not have a ridiculously long pre-shot routine.  However, at one par 3 it took him like seven shots to get on the green (off the tee, several chips back and forth bladed over the green, once out of a bunker, and then three putts.  He wasn't "slow" - in fact, the group in front of us were doing all the bad stuff, admiring each others shots, not playing ready golf, taking a long time on the greens, but they quickly outdistanced us because they were shooting in the mid-80s.  It wasn't unusual for our playing partner to take three of four irons whacks to get the ball off the ground and headed in the general direction of the green.

That being said, he displayed great golf etiquitte, waving two groups through.  On hole #8, the group behind us hit into us and was very frustrated, acting totally out of line.  So my question is this: if you are doing everything right, and playing fast, but just terrible, should you get off the course until you get better?  When we asked him, he basically said he paid his $80, he was playing from the easiest tees, he loved to play golf, and had just started, and as long as he doesn't take a really long time over shots and plays ready golf he should be left alone.  Whats your take?  Can you take longer if you are good?  If you are terrible, and your slow play isn't slow play but just a ton of strokes, do you have every right to be out there just like anyone else, or do you think there is a minimum skill level that needs to be achieved before playing on an actual course?

I didn't exactly know how to handle the situation.  The round wasn't that *slow* overall (just shy of 5 hours), it just seemed that way and frustrating because he mis-hit so often, but he was probably as fast as a slow 20-capper, and somehow I think that if he had been a 20-capper just playing slow the people behind us would have been much more tolerable of the speed.  So if you are being held up on the course, do you give a little extra patience to those who are good, or do you get aggravated at just "slow play" not "bad play"?  In other words, do you give more space and understanding to those who take 5 hours and shoot a slow 85, or those who take 5 hours and shoot a "fast" 150?  Is there a distinction there, and if people are playing fast (Ready golf, no admiring shots, always standing over their ball), do they have the right to be out there regardless of the score?

[Fourputt]

It's a difficult situation.  I think that short game lessons should be recommended to him.  Then practice time on that aspect of his game, since that appears to be his biggest weakness from what you described.

I'm not one who says that he doesn't belong on a golf course until he develops a better swing, but maybe he should be playing a shorter, executive or par 3 course until he gets his feet under him.  Or limit himself to the double par standard - pick up after he hits double par for the hole.

That may not be what he wants to hear, but he needs to realize that those players behind him paid their $80 too and deserve to get the experience they expected.

[Mordan]

Stableford scoring is a great way for a beginner to play on full length courses. As soon as you're not longer able to score a point (double or triple bogey depending on handicap/stroke index) then you just pick up and head to the next tee.

As long as the player is willing to adjust their focus from holing out on every hole to scoring as many points as they can then it shouldn't affect their enjoyment of the round and in some ways it might make it more enjoyable as it allows you to quickly move on from the holes where it all goes wrong and to concentrate on the good ones.

[ochmude]

I don't think you need to be at a minimum level of ability to be on the course, but you should be willing to modify the way you play the game.  Allow me to share a story.

When I first started playing as a teenager and was really awful, like 140+ strokes awful, I'd often go out with my friend's dad (friend=Tim, his dad=Hank). Hank's the one who actually got me hooked on the game and took me out for my first round ever.  At first, we'd play a really extreme version of preferred lies.  If you shanked your shot 5 yards forward and 20 yard to the right into deep rough, you just sorta bumped it a little, like 150 yards further forward and in the middle of the fairway.  The idea was you would get to try a tee shot, a couple fairway shots, maybe some chips or pitches, and some putts on every hole, without having to worry about where the ball was actually going.  You just make the attempt then move on.  Once Tim and I got to the point that we actually had a remote chance of making clean contact once in awhile, Hank had us playing best ball.  Finally, we both graduated to real stroke play, but with per-hole stroke limits (I'm still at this stage, lol).  It was a great way to get out on real courses and into the atmosphere of real golf, without holding up an entire course and frustrating the hell out of ourselves.

[Double Bogey]

Can you be slower if you are good.... in a word NO.

My story from this weekend is what I was expecting out of your post.  The foursome in front of us on Sunday was a group of guys who I know and they are 8-12 handicappers.  I and the others in my group are all over 20.  No way we should be able to keep up with them, good golfers take at least 15 strokes less than then anyone in our group.  Yet we waited every hole.  They must have been playing for BIG money becuase they all "admired" each others shots.  It really got old.  So they were all "good" but played really slow and they do not get a PASS for that.  They should get reprimanded

To answer you questions though.  I think that the "terrible" guy should pick up after double par.  That is what I used to do if the group ahead got too far in front.  Just a thought.

[newtogolf]

If he plays the course often enough he should utilize ESC (Equitable Stroke Control).  I used to just take double par but thanks to TST I learned about ESC and now utilize it.   It will ensure he gets a fair number of swings at a hole but keep the swing counts low enough to ensure he doesn't really slow down play.   As for the overall question, unfortunately skill doesn't always determine pace of play, we all need to be aware of our pace.  Being a good golfer doesn't give you any more rights to play slow IMO.

[kevin.chan]

I can't play slow..anything more than 5 hrs will get my game go so bad ... I prefer all to play ready golf.

[colin007]

Originally Posted by kevin.chan

I can't play slow..anything more than 5 hrs will get my game go so bad ...

I prefer all to play ready golf.

did you read the OP?  guess not.  the guy said the gentleman played ready golf.

anyways, i think that when someone plays at that level they shouldnt be on a full length course.  there are plenty of executive and par 3 courses to cut your teeth on.  i know thats where i did the overwhelming majority of my learning.

[sean_miller]

People say "ready golf" but even that has different meanings. There are guys at my course that walk slow, talk slow, have a long preshot routine, then seem to freeze at the top of the backswing for a few seconds. Then after they spray it or top it, they head off in that new random direction and start the excruciating process all over again. No matter what beginners say, taking a lot of extra strokes takes more time. Why do I have to rush my mid-iron shot into the green or my 20 foot birdie putt because Bill zig zagged his way to the green? Sometimes Bill needs to pick up his ball.

Some guys seem to enjoy being slow. In our golf league there are some guys who just have to finish the hole, even though they already conceded it 2 shots ago. PICK UP!!

[Gioguy21]

to be honest i think it's two entirely different questions. one is about the speed of play, and the other is about the correct amount of time you 'should' take your shot in. for instance: a 'good' player shooting 80 can effectively take more time over a given shot than someone who shoots 100+ based on the simple fact that they're hitting less shots. now, the question would be what is the ample amount of time a person should spend over a given shot....(may the opinions come in the masses) we've all agreed or rather, disagreed in other threads that the speed of play is completely variable in responses from anywhere between 3.5-4.5 hrs/round being an acceptable pace...i believe the OP and i have a similar question (although mine's a bit modified), what do you think is ample enough time one should have to make a given shot (on average, considering all variables ie competition, winning putts, etc)?

[dbuck]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If he plays the course often enough he should utilize ESC (Equitable Stroke Control).  I used to just take double par but thanks to TST I learned about ESC and now utilize it.   It will ensure he gets a fair number of swings at a hole but keep the swing counts low enough to ensure he doesn't really slow down play.   As for the overall question, unfortunately skill doesn't always determine pace of play, we all need to be aware of our pace.  Being a good golfer doesn't give you any more rights to play slow IMO.

I think this is a good option as is using double par or triple bogey as a max until he improves. I certainly don't think he should stay off the course- how else would you learn the ropes.  Sounds like his manners are fine. The only concession I think would be some of the stroke limits as mentioned.  I also don't have too big a problem with some of the preferred lie suggestions for true beginners as long as it doesn't slow play. Letting them drop on the other side of forced carries for instance would speed play--no sense in hitting 3 or four in the water.

[zeg]

To answer the general question, I don't think you can take more time because you're better.  You can probably take a bit more time per shot since you'll have fewer and you're likely to have less walking back and forth, searching for your ball, etc.  However, you don't get extra time on your round just because you're a better golfer.

What justifies a bit extra time to me is a more important round---I'd tolerate a somewhat slower pace in a tournament than on an ordinary day (this is of course within reasonable limits).  I'm thinking of organized events here, though, where the whole course is involved, not just a group of friends who decide to put a bunch of money on the line and then want to play like they're PGA Tour pros.

For the specifics here, I think that a golfer simply has to stick to a decent pace, particularly if one is posted for the course.  It's fantastic that the guy does all the right things to play ready golf, but if he is still really off the pace, he has to modify his game to keep up.  As suggested above, capping at double par or ESC is a great idea.  To make it more fun, I'd suggest that rather than picking up, he allow himself to, say, two less than ESC, then drop somewhere on the green and putt out.  Or if he's getting near the limit and is still far from the green, picking up and dropping for a chip and then putting out.  Basically, set himself up to get to putt out (because, let's face it, that's a pretty key experience) and to practice his shots without slowing the course down unreasonably.

The other thing would be to pick the slowest times of the course if that's possible in the area.  If the course is open, there shouldn't be a problem and I'd say he can take all the time he wants.  Letting a group through on a jammed course is less useful than letting the only other group on the course through.

[RayG]

there's 2 ways to look at the "extreme high handicapper" speed issue. If he's walking then there's a chance that he can stay within the 'normal' time frames people expect. As long as the others in the group don't always stop as a group to watch him play every shot. Hopefully, he will know that he could hold up the group with his 'style' of play and not dawdle around between shots. Quickly walk up to his ball, address the ball and take his swipe. While the others are moving up the fairway at a reasonable pace without obviously getting in his way or distracting him. If they're riding- all bets are off. It will be hit the ball, go back to cart, move 10 yds, change clubs, repeat. While his partner has to wait until they can get to HIS ball. Even when we do ride, I spend more time walking than riding- a direct result of knowing my friends tendencies- a slice into the trees? 3 or 4 swats to get it back. I'll walk to my ball with 2-4 clubs and take my shot when it won't interfere with his shot. I'll continue to walk in the rough up the opposite side of the hole until he's caught up.

[Paradox]

the bottom line is that if its a public course and he paid his fees..then he has every right to be out there to play and enjoy himself just like Johnny Scratch does.  If someone is frustrated by this at a PUBLIC course then they must not know what that word means.  I've never came up behind a bad single or a bad group that didn't want us to play through as soon as possible.  They could feel the pressure of someone behind them that is waiting and it was making their games and their enjoyment decline.

As long as you let people through(if possible) then there should never be anyone take issue with how someone else is playing.  I speak from experience when I say that it can be brutally frustrating, sometimes even embarassing when you're in the group with the guy who's hitting 10 shots to reach the green.  But in the end, as long as the overall pace is good...then I'm good.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Paradox

the bottom line is that if its a public course and he paid his fees..then he has every right to be out there to play and enjoy himself just like Johnny Scratch does.  If someone is frustrated by this at a PUBLIC course then they must not know what that word means.  I've never came up behind a bad single or a bad group that didn't want us to play through as soon as possible.  They could feel the pressure of someone behind them that is waiting and it was making their games and their enjoyment decline.

As long as you let people through(if possible) then there should never be anyone take issue with how someone else is playing.  I speak from experience when I say that it can be brutally frustrating, sometimes even embarassing when you're in the group with the guy who's hitting 10 shots to reach the green.  But in the end, as long as the overall pace is good...then I'm good.

Is there a way to play through when the slow person is in your group? Maybe we should be able to leave straggler behind? I can see why guys try really hard to have a foursome.

[RayG]

the bottom line is that if its a public course and he paid his fees..then he has every right to be out there to play and enjoy himself just like Johnny Scratch does.  If someone is frustrated by this at a PUBLIC course then they must not know what that word means.  I've never came up behind a bad single or a bad group that didn't want us to play through as soon as possible.  They could feel the pressure of someone behind them that is waiting and it was making their games and their enjoyment decline.

As long as you let people through(if possible) then there should never be anyone take issue with how someone else is playing.  I speak from experience when I say that it can be brutally frustrating, sometimes even embarassing when you're in the group with the guy who's hitting 10 shots to reach the green.  But in the end, as long as the overall pace is good...then I'm good.

where's this course where you've never come across a group that DIDN'T want you to play through? As you mentioned, a lot of people "paid the same money" to play and who cares what the group behind (and the group behind them AND the group behind THEM) think. Unfortunately, on a reasonably full public course, too many people follow this practice. Or even if they "feel the pressure", they will purposely slow down just to tick everyone off. On a Private Course, these things can be taken up with review boards, etc... Slow Pokes get publicly outed and matters are taken care of. Public courses need Rangers to nudge folks along- and NOT just tell the whole group, but the offending player to 'pick up the pace'. OR train the Beverage cart girl/guy to recognize situations, call back to the clubhouse and send someone out to fix it.

[1par2win]

Originally Posted by Paradox

the bottom line is that if its a public course and he paid his fees..then he has every right to be out there to play and enjoy himself just like Johnny Scratch does.  If someone is frustrated by this at a PUBLIC course then they must not know what that word means.  I've never came up behind a bad single or a bad group that didn't want us to play through as soon as possible.  They could feel the pressure of someone behind them that is waiting and it was making their games and their enjoyment decline.

As long as you let people through(if possible) then there should never be anyone take issue with how someone else is playing.  I speak from experience when I say that it can be brutally frustrating, sometimes even embarassing when you're in the group with the guy who's hitting 10 shots to reach the green.  But in the end, as long as the overall pace is good...then I'm good.

This^^^^ It could a regional thing but around the Twin Cities area groups let other groups through all the time. Just yesterday I was playing in a foursome with one guy who was very much like the one the OP is talking about. We let a twosome though on the 3rd and another foursome on 11. Wasn't a big deal and I have had the benefit of being waved through myself a few times already this year. It's just common courtesy and having some patience.

To the OP, as long as your buddy is keeping up shouldn't be a problem. But like a couple of other posters here had noticed it sounds like he has some serious short game issues. Maybe you can teach him a real basic chip shot like a PW using a putter grip? Takes a minute to teach and a few minutes of practice and its a shot ready for the course.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Why do I have to rush my mid-iron shot into the green or my 20 foot birdie putt because Bill zig zagged his way to the green? Sometimes Bill needs to pick up his ball.

I guess that is the question.  Given that the player is not doing non-stroke slow things, why does your desire for a fast round trump his desire for a complete round?

As he said when we suggested he pick up, if he picks up, how will he know if he is beating his previous best?  I've seen him go into 18 with a 124 nervous because he could break 130.  Why should his desire matter less than yours?

These are some tough questions but are interesting to consider.