Why have I always been told to work most on my short game?

[johnthejoiner]

We should ask Sergio Garcia

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by max power

If he's only hitting 4 GIR and still manages a respectable 13 handicap I imagine he's got a decent short game and the effort required to raise the GIR wouldn't be that significant.  And the improved ballstriking/control would benefit every aspect of his game.  4 GIR is a number that can and should be improved upon.  This one's a no-brainer.

I interpolated the 4 GIR from Tomboy's post #60 for a person with an average score of 87, which I guess would be close to a 13.  I have no idea how the OP's short game is, but if he is similar to other 13's, the short game needs serious work.

[x129]

The distance was just to make it a simple example that is easy to quantify.

Obviously as 20 who has been playing for 6 months, I need to work on everything. So far almost all of my time has been with irons,woods and hybrids. You might drive for show and put for dough, but if you can't hit the ball 150 yards off the tee 90% of the time, you  pretty much can't play. I have done zero work on putting and minimal (10% of the time on things like bunker play, 20 yard chips,....). What type of golfer does that create.

Last round was a 93.

The obviously bad stuff

8 3 putts

the sand trap that took 3 shots to get out of

another sand trap that took 2 shots to get out of

2 chips over the green

and 1 drives  out of play.

Could I be a scratch golfer with a better short game and the same ball striking? No way. Could I be a ~10 handicap? Maybe. Could I be a scratch golfer with better ball striking and my current short game? Nope. Could I be a 10 handicap?  It would be close.

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Look, if you want to believe (as a 20 'capper) your path to enlightenment is primarily via the short game, then by all means, go for it.  I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you otherwise.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by Bryan SD2

Why focus on the short game the most?

Simple.... your short game is invovled on EVERY HOLE.  (Don't give me that baloney about holing out from 150 either! - and yes, PUTTING is part of the short game).

Your Driver is not part of every hole.  Neither is the short irons, or mid irons, or long irons.  What's so hard to understand???  Practice the short game.  From full wedges all the way down to 3 foot putts.  You'll never break 80 if you don't.

This post has not really been considering PUTTING, it was never intended to when I created it. I do not include PUTTING in short game because it is a different type of shot and IMO shots off the green but not full swings should be a separate category than putting.

That being said, short game is NOT involved on every hole. There is no point in considering putting in this conversation because you have to do it either way.

[McKee]

Tomboys,

If a beginner golfer needs to learn to play well enough to not be completely embarrassed in front of their boss then I can understand the need to spend the majority of time practicing the long game.  As far as score goes, the short game is what gets the ball into the hole. To choose between  two blanket statements regarding "what should be practiced more, the short game or the long game?", it really depends on the situation.  Unless you are a dribbler, more often then not it is the short game that will lower your scores.

If your biggest concern is score then it is a great short game that will help relieve the stress from your long game and therefore help produce better power shots.  If hitting perfect long shots is most important then you risk becoming a great range player.

I think there is a value issue here.  People we play with tend to notice how far and straight we hit the ball and not our score.  It is this impression on our peers that many golfers use to define themselves.

Whether you are a fan of Dave Pelz or not here are some documented facts -

"From a percentage standpoint, the worst performance in golf is the 40-yard pitch shot," he said. "If you put a golfer 40 yards from the green, the percentage he will miss the pin by is the largest of any shot in golf. (Amateurs) hit 40-yard shots worse than they hit drives, worse than they hit sand shots. It was a dramatic realization for us ... Even the tour players, though they don't chunk them fat or skull them (like amateurs), they are still less accurate from 40 yards than they are from 100 or 200. It's across the board, the worst performing shot in golf." - Dave Pelz

According to Pelz, 80 percent of a golfer's handicap is determined by what happens within 100 yards of the green.

According to Pelz, These are the top ten most feared shots in golf:

Short Putts , Greenside Sand, Tight Lies, Downhill Lies, The High, Soft, Cut-Lob Shot, Buried Lies In The Sand, Hitting Through Trees, The Greenside Pitch, Against The Wall, Lag Putts

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Prove it doesn't, and not with a story about your lessons which doesn't serve to disprove anything.

Look, you've had a hard-on for me since I posted the GIR stats.  If I've done something to offend you, then please accept my sincerest apology.  I don't mind a spirited debate, however, the attitude is not necessary.  If you disagree, then simply state your position.  But, please do so in a civil manner.

To answer your question, McKee made the assertion that practicing the short game will yield a secondary benefit of improving your iron play.  I know that practicing your short game can and does affect your overall handicap, but I didn't know it helps your long game as well.  Hence, I asked for proof because if it does indeed help your long game too, then I'm going outside right now to pitch and chip on my lawn.

Originally Posted by Bryan SD2

Why focus on the short game the most?

Simple.... your short game is invovled on EVERY HOLE.  (Don't give me that baloney about holing out from 150 either! - and yes, PUTTING is part of the short game).

Your Driver is not part of every hole.  Neither is the short irons, or mid irons, or long irons.  What's so hard to understand???  Practice the short game.  From full wedges all the way down to 3 foot putts.  You'll never break 80 if you don't.

There are some that include putting as part of the short game and there are others that give it its own catergory.  I'm in the latter group.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Tomboys:  You advocate the long game as the way to lower scores.  Fair enough.  But where are you currently losing strokes, that causes you to be an 80's shooter rather than a 70's shooter? According to the stats you posted, you should be hitting around 6 greens per round.  What is your target GIR?  Is it 10?  12?  How much time and effort do you think it will take to drop your GIR's that much?

Conversely, if you increased your scrambling percentage, you would drop at least a couple (and probably more) strokes RIGHT NOW.  Why wouldn't you want to do that?

The same holds true for the OP at a 13 hdcp. Per your stats, he hits about 4 GIR. Imagine how much effort he will have to put in to raise his GIR to 9 or 10.  Not saying that the pursuit of better ballstriking is a wasted experience, it certainly is not.  But the short game will pay off for him (and you) much quicker.

I'll preface by saying that I've been golfing off and on for 16 years and I've taken multiple instuctions from multiple instructors and I've read and tried many of the Golf Digest tips, etc.  Suffice to say, I'm a seasoned hack.  In 2003, I was down to about a 17 and worked hard on my short game and I got down to a 13 and stalled there.  While I'm sure that with more work, I could've been even better with my short game.  But, it always bothered me how on one swing (full swing), I could hit a solid shot to where as soon as I hit it, I knew I hit the green or the fairway.  I didn't even have to watch it, I just knew.  Yet, on the next hole, I could duff my tee and approach shot.  Drove me bonkers.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective) in 2005, I was in a nasty divorce.  So, my golf game went to hell in a handbasket.  By April of 2010, I couldn't break 100.  I was probably a 28 at that point. I found an instructor that I connected with and took a lesson.  He saw my flip and we worked on it.  I took a few more lessons, but they were on the golf course instead of the range.  There wasn't any swing instructions of the golf course, he just watched me play the holes and we reviewed it.  My last lesson was in June 2010.

I worked just on my long game (full swings)--actually, just contact, but I digress.  Toward the end of 2010, I was getting maybe 2 or 3 GIR per round. I wasn't happy with that, so I spent the early part of this year working on my long game more and putting.  About May of this year, I noticed that I was hitting the ball better than I had ever done.  In fact, my bud commented on how well I was playing.  And, it wasn't just my long game that was better, my short game was better too even though I spent zero time practicing it.

I average 7 GIR per round and my scores average 81.  During the past month or so, I've hit as many as 10 GIR and a my score was per the chart.  I've never broken 80 in my life until recently.  I've done it twice now.  I've even scratched the back 9 during one of those rounds.  My deviation between the number of GIR and average score is 1 stroke.  Sometimes I'm a stroke better and sometimes I'm a stroke worse.  So, I guess you could say, I'm textbook average.  Since the chart assumes GIR as a predictor to scores, I would say that my long game and short game are on average with my current skill level.  So, I'm not leaking shots in any particular area--just all of them, equally.  Could I be better if I worked on my short game?  Yes, but I'm looking for a long-term solution to my game.  Don't get me wrong, short game is important, but short game success is partially (perhaps a large part) determined by the severity of the missed shot preceeding it.  As such, sure the goal is to gain more GIR, but the secondary goal is to minimize the gap between my good and poor shots.  In essence, I want a better miss, if that makes sense.  I don't want to rely on my short game as a crutch for my lack of ballstriking skills.  Because, IMO, if you do that, you won't have those good misses and it can become somewhat of a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by jshots

This post has not really been considering PUTTING, it was never intended to when I created it. I do not include PUTTING in short game because it is a different type of shot and IMO shots off the green but not full swings should be a separate category than putting.

That being said, short game is NOT involved on every hole. There is no point in considering putting in this conversation because you have to do it either way.

Me too.  Right, wrong or indifferent, I consider short game and putting as two separate catergories.

Originally Posted by McKee

Tomboys,

If a beginner golfer needs to learn to play well enough to not be completely embarrassed in front of their boss then I can understand the need to spend the majority of time practicing the long game.  As far as score goes, the short game is what gets the ball into the hole. To choose between  two blanket statements regarding "what should be practiced more, the short game or the long game?", it really depends on the situation.  Unless you are a dribbler, more often then not it is the short game that will lower your scores.

If your biggest concern is score then it is a great short game that will help relieve the stress from your long game and therefore help produce better power shots.  If hitting perfect long shots is most important then you risk becoming a great range player.

I think there is a value issue here.  People we play with tend to notice how far and straight we hit the ball and not our score.  It is this impression on our peers that many golfers use to define themselves.

Whether you are a fan of Dave Pelz or not here are some documented facts -

"From a percentage standpoint, the worst performance in golf is the 40-yard pitch shot," he said. "If you put a golfer 40 yards from the green, the percentage he will miss the pin by is the largest of any shot in golf. (Amateurs) hit 40-yard shots worse than they hit drives, worse than they hit sand shots. It was a dramatic realization for us ... Even the tour players, though they don't chunk them fat or skull them (like amateurs), they are still less accurate from 40 yards than they are from 100 or 200. It's across the board, the worst performing shot in golf." - Dave Pelz

According to Pelz, 80 percent of a golfer's handicap is determined by what happens within 100 yards of the green.

According to Pelz, These are the top ten most feared shots in golf:

Short Putts, Greenside Sand, Tight Lies, Downhill Lies, The High, Soft, Cut-Lob Shot, Buried Lies In The Sand, Hitting Through Trees, The Greenside Pitch, Against The Wall, Lag Putts

I wouldn't dispute anything Pelz says because I'm not privy to his raw research data.  That being said, as Stretch pointed out (in post #64), his information can be misleading.  First off, according to the USGA, the " shot allocation" table for a scratch (score of 72) golfer is 36 shots and 36 putts in a perfect vacuum.  So, if Pelz includes putting into his analysis under short game, then yes, it's easy to see how he could get to the 80% claim that he makes.

However, the only area I see that may be misconstrued is the flubbing the chip or pitch to where you don't get it close enough to the hole so that it leaves you a makeable (for our skill level) 1 putt.  Sure, flubbing the chip does cost you a stroke.  However, you could easily argue that it was a bad approach shot that necessitated the need to make another stroke to get the ball to the putting surface.  So, to summarize, both the bad approach shot and the bad short game shot cost you another stroke.  Which one was the more "costly" mistake?  Depending on your point of view, either could be correct.  Pelz thinks it's a short game problem and puts that missed shot under short game.  Ok, but he fails to address the missed approach shot.  Sure, some may say, with a bad short game you could flub those chips a few times.  Yes, that's true.  But, by the same token, you could also say that if you hit your tee or approach shot into a hazard or OB, your damage isn't limited to just a single stroke as well.  Further, a chunked shot is a chunked shot.  The intent to hit the shot 100 yards is no less important than the attempt to hit it 20 yards.  Again, compelling arguments for both sides.

Also, another consideration is that if you view the chart provided by Stretch, it showed where the most shots are lost between the various skill level of golfers.  In each case, the greatest amount was under long game.  And, just to reiterate, the study categorizes any shot greater than 100 yards as long game.  So, you have data from an independent study that shows the greatest "leakage" in the area of long game.  AFAIK, the study isn't tied to any corporate entity (read: there's nothing trying to be sold).  In contrast, Dave has plenty of stuff for sale.  Indeed, he's not putting that stuff out there for free.  Don't get me wrong, the man knows what he's doing and from where I'm sitting, he's doing very well financially for himself.  Nonetheless, there is a sales pitch, "You have a disease, I have the cure."  Works for the Pharmaceutical Industry and their $400B worldwide business sales.

[ks8829]

Do you think you can shoot par or under without a short game?  How many players do you see miss fairways and greens and still shoot par or under on a hole.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Look, you've had a ****-** for me since I posted the GIR stats.  If I've done something to offend you, then please accept my sincerest apology.  I don't mind a spirited debate, however, the attitude is not necessary.  If you disagree, then simply state your position.  But, please do so in a civil manner.

To my knowledge that was my first reply to one of your posts (in this thread anyway). I wasn't keeping track, and no I won't have to. The irony of your abusive response is not lost on me and consider your subsequent posts ignored.

[McKee]

Here are a couple of ways that practicing my short game improved my long game...

1.

I must admit that I went to the Pelz 3-day short game school.  After many hours of practicing the synchronized swing I was finally able to comfortably stroke , not strike , my pitch shots. These are some pitch shot techniques that I learned -

Emphasis on a good finish, facing the target, weight on your left leg, with the arms in front of your chest

Hips and shoulders turning back and through together, no turn against the hips (finesse swing)

Stroking the shot, not hitting the ball

This kind of work really illuminated the fatal flaws and tendencies in my long game.  I learned more about my swing with these short shots than I ever did pounding balls.  The swing wasn't a blur.  With 50 yard pitch shots I could really feel, and have control of my sway, flip, jab, tempo, path, etc.  Even with shots as short as 15 yards I try to turn and face the target, transfer my weight to my left leg and finish with my arms in front of me. It's a very smooth swing and did wonders for my timing.  It encouraged me to use my whole body to hit shots, not my hands.  Now when I make a strong turn against my hips, a power swing, I am confident because of the tempo and timing I learned from short game practice.

2.

It's just much easier to hit irons when you are not afraid of missing the green.

[TourSpoon]

On the topic of how the short game can help the long game you should take a look at Clampett's book The Impact Zone. He starts out with the concept of the swing center being ahead of the ball and demonstrates this in the golf swing in the first three chapters with putting, chipping, and pitching before going on to the full swing. He believes that if you can establish forward shaft lean in the short game you can begin to employ it easier in the long game. Personally, I use partial shots as a way to set tempo, rhythm, and feel when warming up before a round. Once I feel that good impact position I move towards the full swing trying to keep those dynamics. Sometimes when working drills it is easier to start partial and then go to full. I don't see it working the other way.

[zeg]

Wow, this thread is out of control!

Also, you're ALL wrong.

If you're trying to define whether someone should work on their short game, long game, putting, etc, in an absolute sense, which is what a lot of this discussion seems to be, makes you wrong.  Sure, you can correlate various performance stats with handicap and get an idea of the relative importance of being good at X skill, but trying to use those numbers to answer this question in the absolute is hopeless.

Why?  Because it depends on how good the particular golfer is at that skill, not just how important it is to be good at it.  Do I need to work on my short game?  Without knowing how good I am now and how much I've worked on it to get there, you simply have no way to know how much the next hour I spend is going to improve my results.

Heck, even using those average results vs handicap at all is questionable.  An average 10 handicapper is better at *everything* than an average 20 handicapper, so without some idea of how much variance there is between golfers, it's hard to conclude much.  Also, you need to know the covariance between the stats---that tells you how much a low-handicapper who has, say, a relatively bad long game has to be better than the average 10-handicapper to make up for it with his long game.

So to answer the OP question, I think all you really need to say is that most people don't practice nearly enough, so in general it's good advice to practice more.  If you've got someone who is already practicing some, it's complicated.  After all, the logic being employed by some (more than one, not pointing fingers) would wind up with the advice that you spend 100% of your time practicing your chipping (or long game, depending on which side they are on).  That's obviously absurd, but it results from ignoring the complexities of the equation.

[McKee]

Zeg,

I can't think of a better way to get your point heard than telling everyone they are wrong and follow it up with a dancing banana.

You have some great points but what I got from this thread was that some people just don't think they should practice their short game as much as their long game.  Regardless of your particular problem with the game, shouldn't both the short and long game be given at least an equal amount of respect ?  I think it would be wise to stop these shenanigans and just spend an equal amount of time on every aspect of the game.  Isn't that what the pros do?

Since we are not "the pros", and we don't have 40 hours a week to work on golf, then we will probably work on whatever we feel is the weakest part of our game.  Since our time is valuable wouldn't it be nice to work on one thing and know that at the same time it is benefiting another part of our game?  I know that working on my pitching can help my power swing in many ways.  But making full swings at the range is just that.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by McKee

Zeg,

I can't think of a better way to get your point heard than telling everyone they are wrong and follow it up with a dancing banana.

You have some great points but what I got from this thread was that some people just don't think they should practice their short game as much as their long game.  Regardless of your particular problem with the game, shouldn't both the short and long game be given at least an equal amount of respect?  I think it would be wise to stop these shenanigans and just spend an equal amount of time on every aspect of the game.  Isn't that what the pros do?

Since we are not "the pros", and we don't have 40 hours a week to work on golf, then we will probably work on whatever we feel is the weakest part of our game.  Since our time is valuable wouldn't it be nice to work on one thing and know that at the same time it is benefiting another part of our game?  I know that working on my pitching can help my power swing in many ways.  But making full swings at the range is just that.

I couldn't think of anything more gravitas-inducing than a dancing banana.  I also hoped it would convey that I was trying to have a little fun...  just seemed things were getting to the point that they were going in circles and I was kind of hoping to shake things up.  These discussions can be useful, but when it turns into an Internet argument and people are entrenched, sometimes they go stale (I get into that state myself quite often).

"Respect" sums it up well, imo.  I also think everyone could at least agree that the short game deserves a lot of respect, especially compared to what it often gets.  It was a huge revelation to me when I first realized that you could actually practice those shots.  Seems stupidly obvious in retrospect, but on TV it looks so effortless that it took a while to realize you can't just wish the ball up cozy with the pin.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by zeg

"Respect" sums it up well, imo.  I also think everyone could at least agree that the short game deserves a lot of respect, especially compared to what it often gets.  It was a huge revelation to me when I first realized that you could actually practice those shots.  Seems stupidly obvious in retrospect, but on TV it looks so effortless that it took a while to realize you can't just wish the ball up cozy with the pin.

Actually if you got really good with your approach game, I mean really phenomenal, you could just get away with practicing three footers and tap-ins. Of course you would still have to get off the tee.

This thread has lost its way. Just have a varied practice routine with an extra emphasis on your weaknesses. That is why stats are important.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Just have a varied practice routine with an extra emphasis on your weaknesses. That is why stats are important.

Stats are important, but it depends on how you interpret them.Someone threw up a chart illustrating how Tour players up-and-down stats aren't much better than scratch golfers who aren't that much ahead of low handicappers. Sure - from 30 yards. When you look at their stats from about 10 yards - the distance most single cappers have left for most of their up and downs - the Tour players blow every one else out of the water. Their percentages seem to "approach" 100%.

This season I was struggling with getting off the tee (leaving myself in the long rough or behind bushes) and putting (I already have 2 four putts).  Now I've got those sorted out (strategy, bag setup, and practice) and it's back to working on approaches and up and downs. Every aspect of the game deserves respect because if any of them go South (no offense) then the scores show it. It's not rocket science.

[ND Fan]

If you are satisfied with bogey most of the time don't worry about it.

There is no such thing as a scratch golfer with a lousy short game, doesn't exist.  Nobody hits 17 greens everyday.

Giving shots back because of a lack in short game is foolish.

[deronsizemore]

I haven't looked back through all the previous posts, so maybe someone brought this up?

Seems like you've missed the point totally with regards to working on your short game. Sure, at this point in your golf game, you're a 13 handicap and probably can't understand why someone would work on their short game so much. The fact is, that's where you score. For those times when you do hit the green in regulation, if you can't putt, you'll never birdie. If you miss the green in regulation simply chipping up and two putting isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Of course, better golfers aren't satisfied with missing the green, chipping up and two putting. I'd be pissed if that was my normal game. When I miss the green, I rely on my short game to get my up and down and save par. If your goal is to bogey, double-bogey or worse on every hole, by all means don't work on your short game.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by ND Fan

If you are satisfied with bogey most of the time don't worry about it.

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

If your goal is to bogey, double-bogey or worse on every hole, by all means don't work on your short game.

If I shot 18 straight bogies I'd cut 15 strokes off my score.  God, I suck, lol.