How Inward & Outward rotation affect the golf swing.

[The Tin Man]

This is sadly being forgotten and it has a major impact on the golf swing.

Stick you arms straight out in front of you. Thumbs up.

Rotate arms outward. Rotate arms inward.

If your range of motion is about the same in both directions - that's normal.

If you can only move a few degrees outward and a lot more inward - that's locked in inward rotation.

The opposite is locked in outward rotation. Both are caused by the facial sheath that covers all the muscles in the body. Everything is affected!  They don't call it "locked" for nothing. I don't know of any stretches, exercises or practices that can reverse these tendencies.

Back to the grip.

My upper body is in severe inward rotation. (45 deg palm rotation outward, 270 deg inward) Using a neutral grip, which is very comfortable and natural in the address position, my wrists are flexed incorrectly at the top of the back swing. It's impossible for me to naturally make impact with a flat left wrist. (Difficult compensations are required. )

Using a very strong grip, which doesn't feel right at address,  everything falls correctly into place at the top of the swing and during impact.  For me a strong grip is really neutral.

As for those in upper body outward rotation. It's something I have never experienced.  It's the "secret" of many guitar players. I suspect it may be the secret of some golfers......????

It's possible for the upper body to be in inward rotation rotation and the lower in outward. (I am) Outward rotation  is called "duck footed".  Inward rotation is "pigeon toed". (Which can make walking difficult and running impossible.)

In lower body outward rotation to align to the target, I force my toes straight....align...then rotate my toes keeping my heels stable.

I hope this helps somebody.

[saevel25]

so your talking about rotating the hands, so from thumbs up, to thumbs pointing inward, and then thumbs pointing outward.

My rotation is as follows, if my thumbs are up, and i rotate my thumbs outward, i can rotate 90 degrees. If my thumbs are up, and i rotate inward i can rotate them 180 degress.

What does that say abotu me?

[lorenb]

I think he's talking about when you have a club in your hands

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by saevel25

so your talking about rotating the hands, so from thumbs up, to thumbs pointing inward, and then thumbs pointing outward.

My rotation is as follows, if my thumbs are up, and i rotate my thumbs outward, i can rotate 90 degrees. If my thumbs are up, and i rotate inward i can rotate them 180 degress.

What does that say abotu me?

Same here....except when doing inwards I can rotate almost 270

I would think most people are like this

[The Tin Man]

This test is done without anything in your hands - there's a lot more affected then golf. This is how we live our life's. I didn't know I had a problem until I bought a guitar at the age of 25 and found I can't even hold it properly. Since nature  doesn't care how well we play golf or music  we haven't been weeded out by natural selection.

What I'm hoping for is that a golf teacher look into this by checking every student, before asking the see their grips.  I don't know what the "normal" range is. I'm at the extreme in inward, and wish I could go to 90.

I suspect....don't know....only suspect....that extreme outward rotation helps the golf swing as it does playing the guitar or violin.

Scratch Golfers: How did you make out with this test?

A teaching pro recommend that I follow through without allowing the hands to cross at impact. A move that I never learned  because it immediately ends in disaster.

[saevel25]

i am not sure this has any influence on the golf swing, i think its because i have been playing golf for a while when i was still growing. I also had a huge overswing, now i have a huge shoulder turn with out overswinging and i am very limber when it comes to rotation. I always had flexible hands. Not sure how this relates to any grips, i played golf successfully with a very weak grip, and now i am playing very good with a slightly strong grip.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by saevel25

so your talking about rotating the hands, so from thumbs up, to thumbs pointing inward, and then thumbs pointing outward.

My rotation is as follows, if my thumbs are up, and i rotate my thumbs outward, i can rotate 90 degrees. If my thumbs are up, and i rotate inward i can rotate them 180 degress.

What does that say abotu me?

ditto for me...180 inward, a bit more if I force it (and much more if I let the thumbs go independent of the hands/arms).  I'm laid up at the moment, so I can't check my position at the top, but always felt it was difficult for me to get a lot of wrist cock.

FWIW, the last pro I worked with did have me strengthen my grip and pre-cock my wrists at the beginning of my swing.

[chaptowngolfteam]

Ok, first of all, 270 degrees of "inward" rotation is an absurd amount. If your arms are out in front of you (straight) then you are combining the ROM of the proximal radioulnar joint (just distal to the true elbow joint) and the shoulder joint (glenohumeral). The normal ROM of pronation and supination at the proximal radioulnar joint is 90* in both directions. The normal ROM of internal and external rotation at the shoulder joint (glenohumeral) is about 45* and 110* respectively. Combine these two ROM and you get what you are describing as inward and outward rotation. Now, the reason that almost all people have more as what you describe as inward rotation is because from the thumbs up position you are actually in 90* of external rotation at the shoulder. So you get the standard 90* of pronation from the radioulnar joint and the 90* at the shoulder joint (which will get it back to neutral) then the additional amount of internal rotation that the shoulder naturally has and you can come up with up to 225* of inward rotation. However, at the starting position that you describe, the shoulder cannot complete its full ROM of internal rotation because the greater tubercle on the humeral head will collide with the acromion process from the scapula and block this motion. So anatomically speaking, I can only see maybe 180*-200* of "inward" rotation. Now moving to outward rotation. You have the standard 90* of supination from the radioulnar joint, but since you are starting in 90* of external rotation, there is only an additional 20* left in the available external rotation ROM at the shoulder. This will equate to about 110* of "outward" rotation. Of course when you compare the inward rotation (180*) to the outward rotation (110*) there is a big difference. BUT, this is NORMAL. HOWEVER, if you indeed have a lack of ROM at the radioulnar joint or at the shoulder joint, and believe that the fascia is the problem, then there is a technique called myofascial release. This will release the adhesions that the fascia has on the muscle that is preventing the ROM. If muscle tightness is the problem, then I would suggest stretching the internal/external rotators of the shoulder (self explanatory as to what ROM this will increase) and/or the biceps brachii (will increase pronation as the biceps brachii is the prime supinator) at the elbow. I know that this is a lot of medical jargon and if you have any questions, I would be glad to answer. Oh, and the prime reason as to why someone is duck footed or pigeon toed has to do with the the angle that the femoral shaft attaches to the femoral head. This is called anteversion and retroversion. It is genetic and there is no way to change it. It is possible that tight muscles can play into the pigeon toed or duck footedness, which in that case those specific muscles would have to be stretched.

[The Tin Man]

To MEfree: Thanks for the information on the strong grip and early wrist cock. It confirms  what I'm being learning.

To chaptowngolf team: Stretching muscles won't do it, as you imply the relationship between muscle and bone has to be changed. That's possible by means of cranial manipulation. Feeling my "stuck springs" unwind in two seconds is so wonderful it can't be described. Too bad it only lasts a couple of days  and I no longer know anyone who practices this technique.  (Derived from Dr. Sutherland)

It's how the golf swing is affected  that interests me and I want anyone who reads this to understand it.

With your 3.8 handicap......what's your ROM?

[chaptowngolfteam]

Since I used to pitch I have a little more external rotation in my right shoulder compared to my left. Right shoulder ext. rotation = 145*, int. rotation = 15* (I have GIRD severely), pronation = 80*, supination = 85*. Left shoulder ext. rotation = 95* (I subluxed my shoulder recently and haven't done any rehab), int. rotation = 45*, pronation = 85*, supination = 90*. This equates to right inward rotation = 180* and outward rotation = 100*. Left inward rotation = 180* and outward rotation = 95*. However, I do not feel that any of these ROM's are close to their end limits during my golf swing. You seem to be having problems with proper wrist hinge, however none of these previously stated ranges of motion relate to wrist hinge. The ROM's associated with wrist hinge are ulnar and radial deviation. These ROM's are not affected my muscles or bones, but with all the ligaments in the wrist and the TFCC (Triangular FibroCartilage Complex) that is located at the distal end of the ulna. These ROM's can be increased by the use of joint mobilizations (grades 3&4 specifically). Joint mobilizations are on a continuum that begins with gentle movements of joints to the point of a manipulation (when you crack a knuckle or joint). If you are having trouble getting a proper wrist hinge at address or at the the top of your swing, then it could be grip related (there are other threads on this) or a true lack of ROM. Just for a point of reference, normal ROM for radial deviation would be about 5* and for ulnar deviation about 30*. This is because the radius extends further distally than the ulna.

BTW, my knowledge is based on being a 3rd year athletic training student that is ready to take the certification exam at the end of this next year. I have also taken a particular interest in the biomechanics of the golf swing and intend on working as an athletic trainer in golf. I know that there is another athletic trainer on this forum, but can't remember his screen name, I am sure that he can attest to what I am saying.

I don't intend these postings as to offend you, but as to provide an accurate medical representation as to what happens in the golf swing and to help if there are any orthopedic deficiencies.

[chaptowngolfteam]

Aquaguru is the athletic trainer on this site.

[The Tin Man]

Chaptowngolfteam   Check out http://www.cranialacademy.com/cranial.html

It's not your fault, like I said this information is in real danger of being lost.

This is as far down this rabbit hole I'm going.

For everyone who doesn't want to go down a rabbit hole.  Moving the fluid that surrounds the spinal cord moves the connective tissue (fascia, that filmy white stuff you see cleaning a chicken)  that surrounds every muscle. This is the key to unlocking abnormal limits of rotation not caused by injury. Osteopaths are getting scarce but Chiropractors are slowly learning their techniques.

Bad News:  Good luck finding somebody who can help you with a medical approach.

Good News: There are teaching  pros who have found ways to help their students with limited wrist and arm rotation to  achieve a solid strike with a flat wrist and club lag. Lets share what we experience. :)

[chaptowngolfteam]

Huh, I actually know an osteopath so I will mention it to him the next time I see him. Thanks for the link!

[michaeljames92]

Anyone else think this is a load of crap? pretty sure everyone is the same.

[Gioguy21]

TLDR.

[chaptowngolfteam]

I am thinking the same thing, and that is what I was trying to explain. But then again, I know nothing about "cranial manipulation" so who am I to discount it.

[chaptowngolfteam]

Quote:

Anyone else think this is a load of crap? pretty sure everyone is the same.

I am thinking the same thing, and that is what I was trying to explain. But then again, I know nothing about "cranial manipulation" so who am I to discount it.

[The Tin Man]

Looks like this thread has been bullied to death - end of discussion - which was never meant to be a battle of medical jargon.

I pity your poor victims - I mean clients. Grow up!