Idea to Get People to "Tee it Forward" More Often

[sean_miller]

I think you should only be allowed to play the tips if you're using forged blades and persimmon woods.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by x129

It is as far as anything in life. Think of it as dollars per yard. You want to play 7000 yards. You pay more than the guy that is playing 6000.  Is it a good idea. I don't know. Heck I think it might even slow play done. I could see people going I was going to play tee 4 but for 2 bucks more I get to play the long ones.

Want to eliminate slow play? Charge by the hour. Or give each cart a pace light. It changes color so the whole course can tell if  your a slug.

I suggested that in post #56.  It's really the only measure that would directly impact pace that I can think of.  I've never in my life played further back than the white tees, but I've played 5 and 6 hour rounds before.  I have since changed my ways and always play my home course under time par (I start my stopwatch on the 1st tee and time myself quite strictly), but I freely admit that I used to be a SLOOOOOW player, and it had absolutely nothing to do with playing longer tees.  In fact, it wasn't until this year that I even learned that you were allowed to play blue tees.  When I got into golf as a kid I was taught that red tees were for ladies, white tees for men, and everything else was reserved for tournaments and club competitions.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ochmude

When I got into golf as a kid I was taught that red tees were for ladies, white tees for men, and everything else was reserved for tournaments and club competitions.

That's how it could be again one day. Dare to dream.

[KaiL]

I don't think the proposed is going to work.

In the game of golf, there was never a time element involved.  I think its about time to introduce that, either in penalty strokes for exceeding a time limit or bonus for fast play.

I have work for more than 7 years as a marshal on a public county course.  What usually happened is that by about the 7 th group out from the morning, the course speed is already down to the average of 5hrs round.  The first groups are usually fast regulars and we have to slow them down with more players so that we can get more groups out on the back 9!

Long players are not necessary faster players.  Moving the Ts up on certain days actually slowed the play, because they (including the not so long players) all think they can reach the Green in sight in 2 from 280 yds while their drive is barely 230 yds off the tee.  We have a directional marker post on the 1st hole (510 yds long) at 250 yds from the White.  May be 95% of the people are 20-30 yds short of the flag either from the white or the blue (which is 280 yds to the marker).  And they just stand there waiting for the Green and holding up the next group.  Short players are not that great either, they all think that they can drive 250 yds and not hit their drive when they see the group in front at the directional marker.

I found ladies are usually fast playing groups as they don't drive that far and are usually on the fairway and not in the next hole's fairway or the tall grass.  So they don't spend time on finding their balls and usually pretty fast on the Green as most of them do not gamble.

I think it probably would work if we set a time limit on the first two hours of group starts on the day.  i.e. to have T times on the first two hours of the day, you have to finish in 4 hrs/4 hrs 15 minutes.  If you don't finish the first 9 holes in 2 hrs.  The marshal will move you up to the 10T/11T accordingly.

[johnclayton1982]

After reading this thread, is there any data at all to suggest that teeing it forward reduces your time?  It seems like most of the time problems are caused by slow players, and that won't be fixed by making them start 20 yards forward.  Has anyone ever gotten some actual data on this, or are we juts groping in the dark assuming it would help speed?

When I play,it seems the slowness is from too long over the ball, not playing ready golf (i.e. one drives to a ball, then they drive to the other ball instead of parking in the middle and both walking), not getting out of bunkers in one swing, and putting slowly.  I'm not sure how moving up will change that...

[mdl]

Originally Posted by x129

It is as far as anything in life. Think of it as dollars per yard. You want to play 7000 yards. You pay more than the guy that is playing 6000.  Is it a good idea. I don't know. Heck I think it might even slow play done. I could see people going I was going to play tee 4 but for 2 bucks more I get to play the long ones.

Want to eliminate slow play? Charge by the hour. Or give each cart a pace light. It changes color so the whole course can tell if  your a slug.

I guess we'll just disagree.  I see it as there being longer and shorter tees so that the course can serve a wide range of players.  If the course owners wanted to take up less space, they could just have a very short course but then they would lose business from people like me.  I see your argument for multi-part pricing, and it makes some sense in a theoretical way, but given that no courses currently do that, pretty much any course that tried to be the first to do this would instantly lose almost all business from longer and/or better players.

I LOVE your second idea though, though I prefer to walk and tend not to play courses that require everyone to have a cart.  Instead, how about you get a little beeper with GPS (you have to leave a credit card with the starter) that attaches to your bag.  If you're not playing to pace with the group in front of you and are also not playing at least to something like a 4.5 hour pace, the beeper makes a very loud, very annoying beep (like the reverse beep on the golf cart) until you catch up!

The beeper could be coupled with Erik's second idea, where you get a little bonus if you finish in less than 3.5 hours or something.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

After reading this thread, is there any data at all to suggest that teeing it forward reduces your time?  It seems like most of the time problems are caused by slow players, and that won't be fixed by making them start 20 yards forward.  Has anyone ever gotten some actual data on this, or are we juts groping in the dark assuming it would help speed?

When I play,it seems the slowness is from too long over the ball, not playing ready golf (i.e. one drives to a ball, then they drive to the other ball instead of parking in the middle and both walking), not getting out of bunkers in one swing, and putting slowly.  I'm not sure how moving up will change that...

Good point.  Seems totally plausible that everyone playing one tee forward would have a minimal impact of pace.  Also seems plausible that everyone playing one tee forward would actually speed the pace.  I know there are some harder courses I play where if I played one tee back I'd have tougher second shots, hit less greens, take more shots, lose more balls, and take more provisionals, which would pretty clearly lead to slower pace at least for me on those kinds of courses.

Seems kind of impossible to collect good data on this though.  Could you get some not busy course to agree to force all players to play from one set of tees for week, and do that 3-4 weeks in a row to get average data from each set of tees?  That seems the easiest realistic way to get some solid data on this, but still seems very unrealistic.  Purely observational data even on a very not busy course where no one is ever waiting on the group in front of them would have huge sample bias.

[newtogolf]

I do see your points.  The ultimate goal is to get people to play tees that are appropriate for them and provide incentive and / or penalty to re-enforce the behavior we're attempting to achieve which is faster play for all.  I guess option #2 better addresses this but penalizes people for slow players in front of them.  IMO the only solution to ensure pace of play is to utilize caddies or individual hole marshalls that keep the pace of play up.  Do courses have established playing times for each hole that they factor in when scheduling tee times?

Originally Posted by mdl

I guess we'll just disagree.  I see it as there being longer and shorter tees so that the course can serve a wide range of players.  If the course owners wanted to take up less space, they could just have a very short course but then they would lose business from people like me.  I see your argument for multi-part pricing, and it makes some sense in a theoretical way, but given that no courses currently do that, pretty much any course that tried to be the first to do this would instantly lose almost all business from longer and/or better players.

[hero12]

I play with guys from work on occasion that vary in skill but aren't very good.  The course has 5 tees, and I usually play second from the back while the rest of the group plays second from the front.  The next best golfer would move to the front tee if offered even $1, while the others who actually should move up would not.  I'm playing from farther away, so by your logic, I would be slower and have less fun?  I promise you my 4-6 over par is much faster and more fun than their 20-30 over par rounds.  A few dollars extra for a round of golf isn't a big deal to me, and I only know one person who wouldn't pay extra to play from where they want to play from.  Golf isn't a cheap sport to play, so unless you're playing the wal-mart special clubs at the city par 3 course, you won't care about the extra 3$ if you get to play from the tees you want to.  If that 3$ is enough to sway you to change your golf experience, then it is financially irresponsible for you to be playing golf at this point in your life.

I think the express lane idea is a lot better.  I'll be generous and say you have 4.5 hours for 18 holes, I think it is well w/in reason to ask you to leave if you cannot comply with this.  The people who say they paid for 18 holes and deserve to play at their own pace also have a chance to read the club's rules before paying for their round.  I have never been to a golf course that doesn't have rules posted, including one that says you must keep up with the group in front of you.  If you "forgot" to look at the rules and haven't hit the turn yet, you can have a refund when you get kicked off the course.  You pay to golf, but if you can't keep up, you shouldn't play.

[dbuck]

I voted "maybe" earlier and got distracted before commenting.

I can't get comfortable with #1. I see the point and understand the concept, but I don't like different prices for basically the same course. There would still be bozos who would pay the extra money to "see the whole course" without the skills to do so.

A variation on #2==have a discount based on the average of the last ten groups. Record the time the group starts and finishes, and any group that finishes within a certain parameter of the last ten groups receives a % refund on the spot or a discount off the next round. Have a par time for maybe the first ten groups and base on an average there after. This would encourage groups to keep up with the group in front of them, and they would use all the tools at their disposal--ready golf, appropriate tees, double bogie rule, etc. Relatively inexpensive software probably already exists or could be slightly modified to do this, and would be easier on rangers/starters.  This would also make folks pay more attention to the education and promotional information already available on speeding up play.

[DarkPrince]

My home course just has a print out at each register explaining that for X driving distance, you should be playing Y length course. Problem is most people don't read it, understand it, or recognize which of the 4 tee sets corresponds to the numbers :P

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

. . . the behavior we're attempting to achieve which is faster play for all.

You made a couple positive changes (either this year or late last year) regarding pace of play. Specifically, using ESC to indicate when to pick up.

I recall several brand new golfers, and very high handicappers in general, insisting on playing the ball down on every shot until the ball was holed out, regardless of how many strokes that took. They were adament that a lost ball required the full 5 minutes of searching then a return trip to the teebox if not found. That's great in a tournament, but for handicap rounds, once ESC is hit - anything more than another couple strokes causes undue delays for their group and the group following. Multiply that by 18 holes and it's a nightmare.

[newtogolf]

Actually I made the change last year because you made me aware of ESC and that I should be playing to that instead of double par.  I play with better golfers (though the gap is narrowing) and I'm always conscious of the time I'm taking and making sure I don't slow down our group.  I also tee off on the forward tees while they usually tee off from the tips.

I've said this earlier, but in my experience the biggest issue is education.  You can't expect new golfers to follow golf etiquette or maintain pace of play if they don't know they are supposed to.  I've learned a lot about playing golf on my own and from TST but not everyone is as obsessive about their hobbies as I am.   Courses might consider offering a "New Golfer day" at their club once a month where they offer some education, lessons in etiquette, golf tips and a 1/2 round of golf on a slow day or evening at a discounted rate.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You made a couple positive changes (either this year or late last year) regarding pace of play. Specifically, using ESC to indicate when to pick up.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Actually I made the change last year because you made me aware of ESC and that I should be playing to that instead of double par.  I play with better golfers (though the gap is narrowing) and I'm always conscious of the time I'm taking and making sure I don't slow down our group.  I also tee off on the forward tees while they usually tee off from the tips.

I've said this earlier, but in my experience the biggest issue is education.  You can't expect new golfers to follow golf etiquette or maintain pace of play if they don't know they are supposed to.  I've learned a lot about playing golf on my own and from TST but not everyone is as obsessive about their hobbies as I am.   Courses might consider offering a "New Golfer day" at their club once a month where they offer some education, lessons in etiquette, golf tips and a 1/2 round of golf on a slow day or evening at a discounted rate.

You make some good points. The average player forced to move up or pay more, without any knowledge of why, might choose to play elsewhere. I know I would.

I remember when I started. I had to pick up quite often, unless I played by myself and/or on an open course. It was an accomplishment to be able to play all 18 holes without picking up. Then my game took off and picking up was never a cosideration again. Some players unfortunately never get to the point where picking up isn't an option. Many of the people I see on the course should probably do it a couple times a round (at least).

[XMScott]

Was playing Wednesday. Went out as a single. Two guys together and another single. The two guys together played from the tips. I went 3rd and walked up to the whites. The other single was like wow ive never seen someone not follow everyone else like this. He also played from the whites.

The two guys. One shot par for the day. The other shot a 104. Never found a fairway but stayed at the tips with his friend.

[SouthernILGolfer]

I love all the high tech ideas of how to speed up play.   Will never happen at many of the courses i play at.  A lot of them dont even take debit cards as they dont want to spend money on the machine, cash only.   Most golf courses dont want to spend extra money on gadgets that dont make money and potentially turn people away by policing pace of play.   I like the idea of making people pay more to play the back tees.   Im sure most would say give me the front tees for the lower rate and as soon as they were out of sight of the clubhouse, play whatever tees they like.   You gonna have someone watch every group and make sure they're not doing that, very unlikely.   Beepers with gps, lights on the cart, get real.   Seriously?   I was playing the local lighted par 3 course last night and there was a group of 8 people playing together, all most likely drunk acting stupid, driving up near the greens and bumping the carts together like 4 year olds.   I probably should have called the clubhouse and turned them in and got them all thrown out as they were quite annoying anytime i was on a hole near them, loud and obnoxious.    People like that dont even belong out there, thats part of the problem.  I played 18 holes and a few more(its unlimited play) before they even finished 9 holes, i was playing alone but still wasnt rushing or anything.   Ive seen other groups like that out there and almost got hit by some moron hitting their driver to the wrong green(picked the ball up and put it in my pocket as it landed about 20 yards from me) just to see if they could though that night I was happy to pick up about 15 balls that those idiots left behind so I silently thanked them for being lower on the food chain.   Those kind of people will never follow any rules of etiquette but you have way too many of those on public courses, who couldnt spell tee if you spotted them a t, e and another e.

[mattttt25]

Couple recent comments on course management.  I like the idea of a beginner day, with instruction and discounted golf and items.  Good proactive management.

Also saw a comment I don't think was mentioned before, but again supports management as the driving force behind the length of a round.  When a course shoves foursomes out on the back 9, when the course is already crowded.  All the tricks in the world won't speed up your day when that occurs.  How many times have you been cruising along on a round, only to get to the 10th hole and see a different group in front of you?  The next 9 holes are usually twice as long as the first.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by mattttt25

Couple recent comments on course management.  I like the idea of a beginner day, with instruction and discounted golf and items.  Good proactive management.

Also saw a comment I don't think was mentioned before, but again supports management as the driving force behind the length of a round.  When a course shoves foursomes out on the back 9, when the course is already crowded.  All the tricks in the world won't speed up your day when that occurs.  How many times have you been cruising along on a round, only to get to the 10th hole and see a different group in front of you?  The next 9 holes are usually twice as long as the first.

I've had this happen. But I've also had it where a slow group finally gets played through on the 10th tee, sometimes by a couple groups.  I was in a group once that came around the turn, and before we teed off on 10 a group came screaming out of the clubhouse and accused us of jumping in front of them. A riot almost broke out. One person from each group had to go to the starter to prove we had a tee time ~ 2 hours earlier and were just making the turn. They were very frusting/ed and very slow - double entendre.