Jack Nicklaus on a Centered Pivot

[Phil McGleno]

"I don't believe in a lateral shift," says Nicklaus. "Of course not. I believe in staying on the ball." Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers, "They don't know how to play."

Did Jack shift off the ball slightly in his career? Yes. Did he constantly work, particularly during the off-seasons on not doing that at all? Yes (see the stories about Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair while hitting the ball so he'd stay steady).

[senorchipotle]

a centered pivot with respect to what, though? the upper body or the lower body?

[uttexas]

a centered pivot with respect to what, though? the upper body or the lower body?

Relative to your head/spine/inclination to the ground. The swing arc moves forward in the downswing, by pushing the hips forward, so that the bottom of the swing arc is two inches in front of the ball. Thus, the upper body (spine/head) stays relatively centered by maintaining inclination to the ground via changing degrees of spine flexion, extension, and tilt.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by uttexas

Relative to your head/spine/inclination to the ground. The swing arc moves forward in the downswing, by pushing the hips forward, so that the bottom of the swing arc is two inches in front of the ball. Thus, the upper body (spine/head) stays relatively centered by maintaining inclination to the ground via changing degrees of spine flexion, extension, and tilt.

the main thing is getting your weight forward to get the lowpoint in front of the ball. If your weight stays back low point is too far back

[senorchipotle]

the swing arc should not move forward in the downswing, though. that's what causes pushes, etc

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by senorchipotle

the swing arc should not move forward in the downswing, though. that's what causes pushes, etc

Nah. plane shifted left and you can hit pulls. but you hit ball first. but mottler is too simple in his assessment, on that i will agree.

Jack strived for a very centered head. That's what he means by centered pivot. plain as day to see. keep it simple, simpletons.

[uttexas]

senorchipotle said:

the swing arc should not move forward in the downswing, though. that's what causes pushes, etc

Moving the bottom of the swing arc/path more forward enables you to hit the ball first, then the ground, with the deepest part of the divot in front of the ball. Also, it enables you to hit the ball with more extension of the arms= longer lever=longer/higher shots. Swing arc moved forward in the downswing=push draw. Moving the bottom of the swing arc/path forward results in you hitting the ball earlier in the arc. If the arc/plane/path is in to out more degrees than the clubface is open, the ball will fly in a push draw pattern. Hitting the ball earlier in the arc=more in to out=more draw. Nicklaus, Trevino, and Hogan played a push fade. They hit the ball behind the bottom of the swing arc/path, but with a clubface more open than path=push fade. A few successful golfers played a pull fade (ex: Azinger, Vijay-driver), hitting the ball infront of the bottom of the swing arc with a clubface square to the path (out to in)=pull fade.

 

[senorchipotle]

yes, hitting the ball earlier in the initial arc with a closed face will produce a draw. but moving the arc forward will result in a push at best. the swing arc moves forward only when the upper body moves forward. the swing arc moving forward= disaster. that's when you start hitting pushes, push slices, etc.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by senorchipotle

yes, hitting the ball earlier in the initial arc with a closed face will produce a draw. but moving the arc forward will result in a push at best. the swing arc moves forward only when the upper body moves forward. the swing arc moving forward= disaster. that's when you start hitting pushes, push slices, etc.

A face closed to the path, but right of the target. And the swing arc can be moved forward in many ways, not the least important of which is when the right forearm flying wedge is released, the location of the upper and lower centers, etc.

Either way, that's not really the topic. It's an interesting one, but not in this thread. Consider starting that discussion somewhere.

To answer your first question, "what?", Nicklaus is talking about the only thing that truly pivots - your shoulder around your spine. A steady head. A centered pivot.

[senorchipotle]

Originally Posted by iacas

.

To answer your first question, "what?", Nicklaus is talking about the only thing that truly pivots - your shoulder around your spine. A steady head. A centered pivot.

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

"I don't believe in a lateral shift," says Nicklaus. "Of course not. I believe in staying on the ball." Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers, "They don't know how to play."

Did Jack shift off the ball slightly in his career? Yes. Did he constantly work, particularly during the off-seasons on not doing that at all? Yes (see the stories about Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair while hitting the ball so he'd stay steady).

doesn't sound like he's talking about the upper body. i've never heard of anybody advocating a lateral movement with the upper body.

[JackLee]

Originally Posted by iacas

A face closed to the path, but right of the target. And the swing arc can be moved forward in many ways, not the least important of which is when the right forearm flying wedge is released, the location of the upper and lower centers, etc.

Either way, that's not really the topic. It's an interesting one, but not in this thread. Consider starting that discussion somewhere.

To answer your first question, "what?", Nicklaus is talking about the only thing that truly pivots - your shoulder around your spine. A steady head. A centered pivot.

Yes, and the low point of the arc should be determined at setup, not by a lateral shift while swinging.

[johnthejoiner]

Nicklaus had a massive weight transfer to his back leg, he also had a prominent head turn away from the target which done two things, one it was the trigger for his swing and two it allowed him to achieve his large shoulder turn (people should try it).
Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair while hitting the ball was so he'd not drop his head and had virtually nothing to do with swaying off the ball

[JackLee]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

"I don't believe in a lateral shift," says Nicklaus. "Of course not. I believe in staying on the ball." Asked what he thinks about teachers who advocate a weight shift, he answers, "They don't know how to play."

Did Jack shift off the ball slightly in his career? Yes. Did he constantly work, particularly during the off-seasons on not doing that at all? Yes (see the stories about Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair while hitting the ball so he'd stay steady).

A weight shift does not require a lateral shift. There is always a weight shift because, in the backswing, most of the weight of your arms, hands, and club move to the inside of your trailing foot.  Then, in the down and through swing, that weight moves to your lead foot.

However, I think, with most good players, there is at least a slight lateral upper spine movement away from the target in the backswing.  Then, in the downswing, the upper spine moves forward, but it must not move forward of the address position until after impact.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by uttexas

Moving the bottom of the swing arc/path more forward enables you to hit the ball first, then the ground, with the deepest part of the divot in front of the ball. Also, it enables you to hit the ball with more extension of the arms= longer lever=longer/higher shots.

Swing arc moved forward in the downswing=push draw. Moving the bottom of the swing arc/path forward results in you hitting the ball earlier in the arc. If the arc/plane/path is in to out more degrees than the clubface is open, the ball will fly in a push draw pattern. Hitting the ball earlier in the arc=more in to out=more draw. Nicklaus, Trevino, and Hogan played a push fade. They hit the ball behind the bottom of the swing arc/path, but with a clubface more open than path=push fade. A few successful golfers played a pull fade (ex: Azinger, Vijay-driver), hitting the ball infront of the bottom of the swing arc with a clubface square to the path (out to in)=pull fade.

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[kurisu]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

In the video, is there a reason why the swing plane would change from a 9 iron through to a 4 iron  ?

Uh, yeah, shaft length.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by senorchipotle

doesn't sound like he's talking about the upper body. i've never heard of anybody advocating a lateral movement with the upper body.

To the first sentence, I completely disagree. With the second, you apparently haven't heard much. Look around. It's everywhere, and isn't just created at setup - "turn your left shoulder over your right knee/foot, etc."

Originally Posted by JackLee

Yes, and the low point of the arc should be determined at setup, not by a lateral shift while swinging.

No real disagreement here, but the simple fact is that low point varies during the swing. Very few golfers set up with a flat left wrist, for example.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Nicklaus had a massive weight transfer to his back leg, he also had a prominent head turn away from the target which done two things, one it was the trigger for his swing and two it allowed him to achieve his large shoulder turn (people should try it). Grout grabbing fistfuls of his hair while hitting the ball was so he'd not drop his head and had virtually nothing to do with swaying off the ball

Nah. :-)

Originally Posted by JackLee

A weight shift does not require a lateral shift.  There is always a weight shift because, in the backswing, most of the weight of your arms, hands, and club move to the inside of your trailing foot.  Then, in the down and through swing, that weight moves to your lead foot.

Two things to that...

First, I was one who thought "arms, hands, club" move back caused a "weight shift" like this. Turns out I was wrong. I can set up 50/50, make a normal backswing for me, and the scales will still say 50/50. Subtle movements at this point can get me to 55/45 in either direction, though, but they primarily involve moving the hips to one side or another a little more (or, if you wish, the head, though I don't wish :-D).

And second, the weight shift on the downswing is caused largely by a lateral shift, and every golf swing - even a perfectly centered one that starts 50/50, goes to 50/50 at the top, and then goes to 90/10 at impact or in the finish have a weight shift. It's just entirely done on the downswing.

Originally Posted by JackLee

However, I think, with most good players, there is at least a slight lateral upper spine movement away from the target in the backswing.  Then, in the downswing, the upper spine moves forward, but it must not move forward of the address position until after impact.

That may be true, it may not be true. I will say that this shift is minimizing over the past five, six, eight years. There were bigger shifts in the 80s and early 90s.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

In the video, is there a reason why the swing plane would change from a 9 iron through to a 4 iron ?

John, c'mon...

Originally Posted by kurisu

Uh, yeah, shaft length.

Shaft length. Lie angle of the club. Two sides of the same coin.

Those two things necessitate a different inclination (of the golfer).

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

Nah. :-)

Quote I've read from Jack seem rather consistent with JTJ's post regarding the holding of the hair.  If there was a scale under each of Jack's feet, do you suppose he has equal weight on both feet in the centre photograph? Relative to the photos on the left and the right?

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If there was a scale under each of Jack's feet, do you suppose he has equal weight on both feet in the centre photograph? Relative to the photos on the left and the right?

If he did, his left knee would be pretty jacked up,lol, see how its kinked in cause the weight went to his back leg. Alot of golfers back then liked to lift up their left heel on backswing, Foley actually gave this for a drill in his dvd to help people transfer their weight better to get the feeling of "squashing a tomato" on downswing, helps feel it more since your left heel is up