Annoying or helpful?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Quote:

What's the "problem"?  There are a BUNCH of guys out there playing golf that don't know all correct rulings, nor do they really care.  If they want to learn, they can.

I don't understand what you mean by saying there are "so many problems with rules", or what was hurt by those guys not knowing the correct ruling.

And one way to learn is to inform them if you overhear them asking each other about it.  There are clearly a lot of problems with rules ignorance, or there wouldn't be so many questions asked.  By just ignoring it, you are helping to promote that ignorance (assuming that you actually know the answer - if not then keeping quiet is your best move ).

As to what was hurt:  Since they were making the effort to discuss it, I would have concluded that they WERE interested in knowing the right procedure.  Thus, it simply makes sense to tell them, doing it politely and with a smile.  Promoting ignorance, even if by omission, never makes sense.

[Gresh24]

We have a very different definition of 'promoting ignorance'.  It's a game.  They aren't hurting anything.

I'm sure they were discussing it, but to what extent, none of us know.  They may have all agreed on a ruling (wrong or right) and been just fine with that.  Perhaps one of them sought out the correct ruling after the round.  Perhaps they didn't care.  They may have very much appreciated a correct ruling at the time, but again, we don't know that.  To me, being there, you could have probably determined if they "needed" or "wanted" help.

I agree there is a lack of knowledge on all the correct rules of golf.  I disagree that it is a problem or promotes ignorance.  If they care enough to figure it out they will, with or without being told on the course by another golfer.

If promoting ignorance never makes sense, do you interrupt every person and conversation you hear that contains misinformation?  My goodness, that'd be a full time job.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I'm pretty much referring to the rules questions that people ask on this forum. The majority of them are very straightforward and "problems" would not arise if one of the people in the group had a modicum of experience. Seems to me that there are lots of guys who play together who have never played with an experienced golfer. That's why they they ask if an airswing counts, wonder why they're pllaying 5 off the tee with two OB and ask questions such as the OP. If these weren't problems, those players wouldn't come here for solutions. They obviously see them as problems.

But if you want a semantic argument, that's something entirely different...

I gotchya.  I probably took it too literally - but partially due to a few other responses.

This is a game that pros themselves have to get rulings from marshal during matches.  There are too many rules to even fathom for 95% of armatures.  I'm not sure if I, or a group, would/should trust someone randomly approaching me on a course and giving me rulings.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I gotchya.  I probably took it too literally - but partially due to a few other responses.

This is a game that pros themselves have to get rulings from marshal during matches.  There are too many rules to even fathom for 95% of armatures.  I'm not sure if I, or a group, would/should trust someone randomly approaching me on a course and giving me rulings.

Actually, most of the rulings you see pros get are just for the purpose of covering their asses.  They know the rules for the most part (like dropping from a water hazard or taking relief from an obstruction), but they are taking no chances.  if the RO says they are in the right, then they can't be second guessed later if some turkey calls in because he thinks they dropped 2 inches too close to the hole or some such nonsense.  They usually call the RO for self defense, nothing more.

If you really believe the sentence I put in bold, then maybe you shouldn't bother telling them anything.  I've worked as a CGA rules official, as well as many years in my home club on the rules committee.  I'd feel pretty confident in giving good information, and anything I might be unsure of I'd keep quiet about, but that would be a pretty unusual scenario.  And I wouldn't hesitate to to state my qualifications if they asked.  I've done it before and I'll do it again, and I've never had anyone do anything but thank me for the help.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Actually, most of the rulings you see pros get are just for the purpose of covering their asses.  They know the rules for the most part (like dropping from a water hazard or taking relief from an obstruction), but they are taking no chances.  if the RO says they are in the right, then they can't be second guessed later if some turkey calls in because he thinks they dropped 2 inches too close to the hole or some such nonsense.  They usually call the RO for self defense, nothing more.

If you really believe the sentence I put in bold, then maybe you shouldn't bother telling them anything.  I've worked as a CGA rules official, as well as many years in my home club on the rules committee.  I'd feel pretty confident in giving good information, and anything I might be unsure of I'd keep quiet about, but that would be a pretty unusual scenario.  And I wouldn't hesitate to to state my qualifications if they asked.  I've done it before and I'll do it again, and I've never had anyone do anything but thank me for the help.

Regardless of what excuse you use to justify pros needing rulings, the fact is, they do.  It can, and has, cost guys tournaments and a lot of money.  The rules of golf are certainly unlike any other sports.

Regarding your second paragraph, I would not bother telling anyone anything, regardless of the knowledge I have on the subject.  Some people just don't think it is their place to go around correcting everyone and saving the world from promoting ignorance in leisure activities.

Where do you draw the line?  Do you correct every rule violation you see on a golf course?  After all, promoting ignorance, even if by omission, never makes sense.

[rustyredcab]

There are some rules judgements (that's not inside the hazard line), and some disagreements about what happened (I think the ball crossed the hazard here and you think it was there) but for the most part, the rules about what to do are pretty simple for average golfers. The penalties for doing the wrong thing can be harder to memorize.  Example: Most know that you can only carry 14 clubs but few know what happens if you carry more. And when you have multiple games going that are both medal play and match play, who knows what some of the penalties are supposed to be that are different for match play. Easier to carry 14 clubs than to learn the rules for what happens if...

I play in a few friendly events each year with an extended group of buddies. We all put in a little money and there are lots of games over several rounds. It is not much money but the bragging rights are huge. In those cases, we all try to make sure the rules are followed because we are protecting the field. A lost ball is a lost ball. That stroke and distance could change the winner over the next few rounds regardless of how your 4-some match is going. If you play in my Saturday group, we play for 50 cents a point and two points per hole max. Still, we try and play by the rules. We are close and competitive. There's always the guy looking for a super favorable drop and asking for "a ruling" when he's really begging for mercy ("Can I drop here or do I have to drop there?"). He can have mercy if he forfeits the hole.

If I join some guys I've never met, I'll ask if they want help with a ruling, if not, it is their game. And in that case, I think ignoring ignorance makes sense.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Regarding your second paragraph, I would not bother telling anyone anything, regardless of the knowledge I have on the subject.  Some people just don't think it is their place to go around correcting everyone and saving the world from promoting ignorance in leisure activities.

Where do you draw the line?  Do you correct every rule violation you see on a golf course?  After all, promoting ignorance, even if by omission, never makes sense.

I don' t draw a line, I use something better, and quite simple...... common sense.  In the OP's scenario, they were obviously concerned or they wouldn't have been debating the ruling.  I don't butt in on a group of strangers when I see them violating a rule unless there is something to indicate that they want to be set on the right track.  I'm not the idiot that you seem to take me for, and I don't butt in on groups which don't seem to care about learning the rules.  I'm perfectly capable of shrugging my shoulders and ignoring them.

I am, however, happy to pass on my knowledge of the rules of it seems that the information will be accepted gracefully.  As I said above, I've always been thanked for my actions, so I must have done something right.  It's been my experience that the majority of golfers actually prefer to learn the basic rules correctly, and to play by them.

[Gresh24]

Quote:

I don' t draw a line, I use something better, and quite simple...... common sense.  In the OP's scenario, they were obviously concerned or they wouldn't have been debating the ruling.  I don't butt in on a group of strangers when I see them violating a rule unless there is something to indicate that they want to be set on the right track.  I'm not the idiot that you seem to take me for, and I don't butt in on groups which don't seem to care about learning the rules.  I'm perfectly capable of shrugging my shoulders and ignoring them.

I am, however, happy to pass on my knowledge of the rules of it seems that the information will be accepted gracefully.  As I said above, I've always been thanked for my actions, so I must have done something right.  It's been my experience that the majority of golfers actually prefer to learn the basic rules correctly, and to play by them.

I don't think you're an idiot at all.  You seem like a very intelligent person.  This is merely a matter of difference in personalities.  Some people would approach strangers to "fix their ignorance", and others wouldn't.  No big deal, to each their own.

I think I took this situation/argument too seriously and literally, and for that I apologize.  I was probably defending a position that none of you really had here.  I just get tired of hearing how many less experienced and high handicap golfers are 'problems' and 'ignorant' - seems to me to be a theme in a lot of threads.

I too would have thanked you for your help if you would have come up to my group.  Then when you walked away, I would have said/thought 'mind your own business you presumptuous jackass...'

[mika501]

I would have offered the advice, can't do any harm, and we all need educating when it comes to rules of golf!

[Topper]

I think each of you (Gresh and FourPutt) have valid points.  Maybe a reasonable middle ground is to ask if they would like an "outside" rules interpretation and see where it goes.

[Gresh24]

I definitely agree, Topper, and said as much (or agreed with rustyredcab) earlier in the thread.

You're right, there is a very simple and courteous way to handle the situation, and take all of the guess work out of how someone would handle "having their ignorance fixed"....

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

"Hey. I don't want to butt into your game, but would you like to know the correct ruling?"

If "No thanks." then I'd tell them to enjoy the rest of the day.