Handicap rounds from different tees

[Ignorant]

In EGA handicap system one may play from whichever tee one wishes as the net result is calculated with the help of the Slope system. But how is this done in the USGA system? Is a male person allowed to play a hcp round from eg. women's tee? What about playing from men's club tee and back tee? How is the change in difficulty taken into account?

[Grumpter]

Pebble Beach

BLACK: Rating 75.5 / Slope 145
BLUE: Rating 74.7 / Slope 143
GOLD: Rating 72.6 / Slope 136
WHITE: Rating 71.3 / Slope 132
RED: Rating 71.8 / Slope 129

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

In EGA handicap system one may play from whichever tee one wishes as the net result is calculated with the help of the Slope system. But how is this done in the USGA system? Is a male person allowed to play a hcp round from eg. women's tee? What about playing from men's club tee and back tee? How is the change in difficulty taken into account?

A man is only allowed to play a handicap round from a given tee set if it has been rated for men.  Most courses I've played don't have a men's rating for their forward tees posted on the card.  I don't know if that information is available by asking or not, as I've never asked.  If a tee set hasn't been rated for a given segment of players, then it can't reasonably be used for handicap.

[zeg]

Rating and slope varies depending on the tee.  It can be tricky because not every tee is always given a rating, e.g., women's tees are sometimes not rated for men's play (and vice-versa---often the longest men's tees are not rated for women's play).  In that case, there are guidelines in the handicap manual for estimating the rating/slope based on the yardage change from the nearest rated tees.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Rating and slope varies depending on the tee.  It can be tricky because not every tee is always given a rating, e.g., women's tees are sometimes not rated for men's play (and vice-versa---often the longest men's tees are not rated for women's play).  In that case, there are guidelines in the handicap manual for estimating the rating/slope based on the yardage change from the nearest rated tees.

I find this a bit tricky to understand. As far as I've understood the USGA handicap is calculated by taking the average of the best 10 out of latest 20 rounds multiplied with 0.94. So how does slope hcp and net results come into picture here?

Oh, and the average is calculated from the gross score, not the net score. Or am I completely lost here?

[mdl]

You could easily find this online, but I'll share.  Handicap score for a given round is:

[ Score - (Rating from tees you played) ] * 113 / (Slope from tees you played) * 0.96

You average the 10 lowest of these numbers from your last 20 rounds and that's your handicap index.

You can think of this sort of as first finding your score relative to what a scratch golfer should average (Score - Rating).  Then you multiply by a number that takes into account how easy the course is (113 / Slope).  Here 113 is arbitrarily the slope of some course of "average" difficulty, so if you play a course with a slope of 125, that course is harder than "average", so you get to multiply how many shots you shot over the course rating by some number less than 1 to take into account that this course was more difficult.  Then you further get to multiply by 0.96 as an extra fudge that I've never quite understood.  Something about how your handicap should be more about what you hit on a good day, rather than an average day.

Note also that at 113 isn't really a slope rating of a course of "average" difficulty.  The very easy, wide open courses that I'll play when I want to practice without huge penalties for misses or when I want an ego boost about how low I can score have slopes in the 117-120 range from the back tees (6700-6800 yards) and 115-117 from the front tees (low 6000s yards).  Basically only courses that are literally flat with almost no trees, almost no bunkers, and very short will get a slope of less than 113, so if you're playing full length courses that (113 / Slope) multiplier will almost always be at least partially an extra fudge factor that makes your handicap lower than the average difference between your score and par.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by mdl

You could easily find this online, but I'll share.  Handicap score for a given round is:

[ Score - (Rating from tees you played) ] * 113 / (Slope from tees you played) * 0.96

You average the 10 lowest of these numbers from your last 20 rounds and that's your handicap index.

You can think of this sort of as first finding your score relative to what a scratch golfer should average (Score - Rating).  Then you multiply by a number that takes into account how easy the course is (113 / Slope).  Here 113 is arbitrarily the slope of some course of "average" difficulty, so if you play a course with a slope of 125, that course is harder than "average", so you get to multiply how many shots you shot over the course rating by some number less than 1 to take into account that this course was more difficult.  Then you further get to multiply by 0.96 as an extra fudge that I've never quite understood.  Something about how your handicap should be more about what you hit on a good day, rather than an average day.

Note also that at 113 isn't really a slope rating of a course of "average" difficulty.  The very easy, wide open courses that I'll play when I want to practice without huge penalties for misses or when I want an ego boost about how low I can score have slopes in the 117-120 range from the back tees (6700-6800 yards) and 115-117 from the front tees (low 6000s yards).  Basically only courses that are literally flat with almost no trees, almost no bunkers, and very short will get a slope of less than 113, so if you're playing full length courses that (113 / Slope) multiplier will almost always be at least partially an extra fudge factor that makes your handicap lower than the average difference between your score and par.

Ok, it's the net score that counts. Thanks, man, all clear now!

[zeg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl
Then you further get to multiply by 0.96 as an extra fudge that I've never quite understood.  Something about how your handicap should be more about what you hit on a good day, rather than an average day.

The 0.96 is supposed to reward the lower-handicap player for being a better golfer, since it gives fewer strokes than you "deserve" (compared to using 1.0 instead of 0.96).  It's choosing the best 10 of 20 that makes the number reflect your better days.

Note also that at 113 isn't really a slope rating of a course of "average" difficulty.  The very easy, wide open courses that I'll play when I want to practice without huge penalties for misses or when I want an ego boost about how low I can score have slopes in the 117-120 range from the back tees (6700-6800 yards) and 115-117 from the front tees (low 6000s yards).  Basically only courses that are literally flat with almost no trees, almost no bunkers, and very short will get a slope of less than 113, so if you're playing full length courses that (113 / Slope) multiplier will almost always be at least partially an extra fudge factor that makes your handicap lower than the average difference between your score and par.

The slope is intended to reflect how much more difficult the course is for a higher handicapper than it is for a scratch golfer, whereas the rating is the expectation for a scratch golfer.  So a course with a low rating and high slope would indicate that it's easy as long as you can hit the ball where you aim (so perhaps short with tight fairways and lots of trees).  A high rating and low slope is harder for me to picture, and is rare in the areas I've seen.  I suppose miniature golf would probably qualify here.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Ok, it's the net score that counts. Thanks, man, all clear now!

Not quite - your differential is what counts, which is not the same as your net score.

Your differential is the number obtained by applying the slope and rating to your score, as described in the formula mdl posted above. (For example, if I shoot a 90 from tees with a rating of 69.4 and a slope of 122, my differential is 19.1*). The 10 best of your last 20 differentials are used to calculate your handicap.

Your net score is your actual score minus your course handicap, which is calculated by multiplying your current handicap by (slope/113), then rounding to the nearest integer. For example, if my handicap is 20 then my course handicap for the tees described above is 22. That means my net score for the round is 90-22, or 68. Net scores are really only used in tournaments or league play. (Although you can use them to see how close you played to your handicap - in the example above, my net score was 1.4 strokes below the course rating, so you could say I played better than my handicap by 1.4 strokes).

*I did not apply the 0.96 since that's usually done to the average of 10, not each individual score - although yes, mathematically it works out the same.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Not quite - your differential is what counts, which is not the same as your net score.

Your differential is the number obtained by applying the slope and rating to your score, as described in the formula mdl posted above. (For example, if I shoot a 90 from tees with a rating of 69.4 and a slope of 122, my differential is 19.1*). The 10 best of your last 20 differentials are used to calculate your handicap.

Your net score is your actual score minus your course handicap, which is calculated by multiplying your current handicap by (slope/113), then rounding to the nearest integer. For example, if my handicap is 20 then my course handicap for the tees described above is 22. That means my net score for the round is 90-22, or 68. Net scores are really only used in tournaments or league play. (Although you can use them to see how close you played to your handicap - in the example above, my net score was 1.4 strokes below the course rating, so you could say I played better than my handicap by 1.4 strokes).

*I did not apply the 0.96 since that's usually done to the average of 10, not each individual score - although yes, mathematically it works out the same.

Good explanation, maybe I finally understood

[Gresh24]

There are different ratings/slopes for men and women?  I didn't know there were tees only rated for men or women...

[sean_miller]

You're kidding, right?!?

Originally Posted by Gresh24

There are different ratings/slopes for men and women?  I didn't know there were tees only rated for men or women...

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You're kidding, right?!?

Unfortunately, no.  Obviously the closer tees are rated lower/easier, I understand that.  But why would those ratings be different for men and women?

So women only have one option for tees?  And men have up to 4 or 5?  Or do some of them (same tees) have different ratings for men and women?

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Unfortunately, no.  Obviously the closer tees are rated lower/easier, I understand that.  But why would those ratings be different for men and women?

So women only have one option for tees?  And men have up to 4 or 5?  Or do some of them (same tees) have different ratings for men and women?

No some are only men, some only women, and some both.  For instance, my home course has 4 sets of tees the Professional, Championship, Regular, and Forward.  The Professional and Championship tees only have a mens rating, the Regular tees are rated for both and the Forward tees are only rated for women.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

No some are only men, some only women, and some both.  For instance, my home course has 4 sets of tees the Professional, Championship, Regular, and Forward.  The Professional and Championship tees only have a mens rating, the Regular tees are rated for both and the Forward tees are only rated for women.

So, the regular tee has two different ratings, one for men and one for women?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

So, the regular tee has two different ratings, one for men and one for women?

Yep.  Women's ratings are always higher, largely because women as a rule do not hit the ball as far.  For example, by definition a male bogey golfer averages 200 yards off the tee versus 150 yards for a female bogey golfer (250 yards vs 210 yards for scratch golfers).

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by zeg

Yep.  Women's ratings are always higher, largely because women as a rule do not hit the ball as far.  For example, by definition a male bogey golfer averages 200 yards off the tee versus 150 yards for a female bogey golfer (250 yards vs 210 yards for scratch golfers).

Thanks for the clarification.