So much for lessons.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

S_M, it's easy to claim that you're a "two planer" (or someone else is) and that there are "one planers" out there. More meat, please. Post a thread on the two-plane swing. What it is, why you think "it's good," etc. If you do a good job I think you'd be surprised that I (and others) agree with a lot of it. This site, like any other forum, is built around discussion, not mildly amusing one-liners.

P.S. I had a post somewhere which showed Jack Nicklaus delivering, from the top of his swing, the clubhead and his hands "straight down the plane." It was a really upright plane (duh), but it's relevant to the one-plane/two-plane discussion. Which, I should note, belongs in a new thread or another existing thread, but not this one.

P.P.S.:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

While Erik and I may like a lot of what S&T; has to say, we're not interested in having The Sand Trap "pro" anything.  We welcome debate and discussions that brings out the best golf information.  If we all agreed on everything, no progress can be made, last thing we want to do is be stuck in a certain way of thinking.  Erik and I are Golf Evolution guys and have "evolved" from the S&T; model or whatever S&T; is perceived as.  We prefer to see the head stay centered, left arm match the shoulder tilt at P4, hips go forward on the downswing but first and foremost is to check impact alignments and figure out the player's needs.  If a student looks like Fred Couples at P4 but controls low point, why change that?  Erik is one of the smartest swing theorists out there, the information he shares doesn't come out of thin air or says it just to make the picture nice, it's grounded in an understanding anatomy, physics and geometry.

Suck-up.

But yeah, we've evolved. Good line. We should make that the title of our teaching group or something... Oh wait.

s_m, if you have a problem with Mike's advice to the guy (the "two-plane" guy), post in that thread with meat. If you don't, it's almost like not voting in a presidential election: you kind of forfeit your right to bitch after the fact.

P.P.P.S. Mike's avatar is of Jack Nicklaus. Has been for a few days at least. I think that says something.

BTW - I'd love to start a thread with a detailed comparison of 1-plane and 2-plane swings. If I'd hung onto the Golf World issues that just did that I'd maybe have a chance to do it logically.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

. . . why turn them into something else. At least, why do it without any "meat" to support it. It's a two way street.

Perhaps you're placing too much emphasis on "swing plane." If I told you - and bear in mind I haven't looked in detail at the person's swing to which we're referring - that 80% of his swing were components for a one-plane swing and 20% was a two-plane swing, which makes sense to fix? You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that because this guy lifted his arms off his torso that "he's a two-plane swinger." Yet he wanted to get better, so what was Mike to say? "Uh, just practice more"?

But I hear you, and Mike may have gotten a little lazy in that thread and failed to post much meat. I talked with him about it yesterday (not that thread specifically, just that it's easy to get lazy). I post less in "My Swing" threads because the temptation to get lazy is too strong. I'd prefer to not post rather than to post quick little things (exceptions are made for people who will know what and why I'm saying what I'm saying).

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I only commented on one guy who seemed to have a very obvious 2-plane swing.

I think Mike would disagree with you that his swing was "very obvious"ly a 2-plane swing. And that may be the crux of it all as far as that sub-topic goes.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

My swing is what it is, and if I cocked my wrists slightly or and laid the club off,  my hands wouldn't appear high at all. They're high relative to the ground because I'm 6' 2" inches tall and don't want to put a driver shaft in my 6-iron, but like I said it's not about me.

No, your hands would still appear high ( JPG link here ). If you're content with "my swing is what it is" then that's fine. But you're a 10 handicapper (or whatever) because your swing "is what it is." That's not said in a disrespectful way, but it is more evidence that feel ain't real. It's also proof that if you want to get better, you'll need to change some things.

And I've gotta admit I have no idea what the driver shaft in the 6I has to do with anything.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

It's about people enamored with the S&T; method who think any suggestion to a player posting a swing thread on this site has to be 100% consistent with "what Erik and Mike will say" (because we all know what that is right ?!?) then it's an attack on S&T.;

A few things, briefly:

1. You've gotta admit your posts tend to be very light on the meat. The post we keep talking about without specifically linking to is another example. You posted, IIRC, a picture and made a comment but didn't do any actual swing analysis or share your own opinion and back it up. It was just snark.
2. Mike and I - and Dave and I, and so on - are constantly changing the way we teach. We don't agree on the top priorities amongst ourselves all the time . So to pretend like anyone could guess "what Erik and Mike will say" is predictable demonstrates a bias you seem to have against "us" or "S&T;" or something.

Given the "low meat" content and the opposition it offers, I can see how your posts come off to some as "attacks." As I've said, I simply regard them as "low meat content" and move on. I don't really care. Others apparently do... too much, perhaps.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

That not every player needs to use it to be successful? Why would that need added "meat"? It's obvious from countless the swing examples on youtube. It's a great way to swing. There are a lot of great ways to swing - as long they return the club head through the ball in a repeatable manner.

We'd agree on the last part. Duh. I think you'd at least agree with that. We can't really discuss the first part because I suspect you define "it" differently than I do. The more you understand about the golf swing, the broader the definition of "it" becomes. People new to S&T; tend to have a very rigid definition, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I would love sean_miller or Harmonious to reply to one, just one, swing thread, adding something worthwhile to the debate. An argument for the 2-plane swing, or whatever they believe in, would be great. But what do we get instead, "well, this guy does alright for himself" and a picture of someone with his hands way above his head (look at the post above to see what I mean). Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't challenge me or allow me to grow. That is the reason why I've challenged them and look at how they have replied - ignoring me and tossing their toys out of their prams.

I think you're overstating things to say that they never add anything (and to lump the two together), but I'll leave the rest because I agree with the sentiment it expresses (though not with quite the same level of energy) at least 51%.

As to the 5% anyone who is willing to learn is almost automatically inside the 5%. And H and S_M are ineligible because they're not instructors. Different goals. They only need to learn about their swing, not the swings of others or general theory.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I really hope you don't think I am here to just copy your lessons and use them on my students.

To be clear, that thought's never occurred to me.

sean_miller, consider a few things about Jack Nicklaus's swing and consider some about your own. I think you'd find that Mike and I know quite a bit and can explain a lot of golf swings. Again, we wouldn't change Jack Nicklaus, nor Jim Furyk, nor Lee Trevino. But we could tell them what piece controls something else and results in the troubling ball flight they're having.

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/8/89/8906345f_sean_miller3.jpeg

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/9/94/9495344a_jack_nicklaus_1.jpeg

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/7/74/7469796d_jack_nicklaus_2.jpeg

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/b/bf/bfa3ce83_jack_nicklaus_3.jpeg

[iacas]

Originally Posted by iacas

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/b/bf/bfa3ce83_jack_nicklaus_3.jpeg

I could make the argument that Jack Nicklaus was more of a one-plane swinger that just happened to do a funky thing near the top of his backswing.

See the notes there about the hips at P3.7 or so? The picture you posted shows this well:

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/1/10/104741e7_jack_vs_charlie.jpeg

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/f/f5/f55320c6_jack_move_at_top.jpeg

But Jack stuff is not really the topic here. Or maybe it is. I'm not sure we have a topic anymore. :-)

[Golfs-for-Fun]

When you guys talk about 2 plane, do you mean the club going back on one plane then on the downswing doing that thing where you bring the right arm in and having the club come in closer on the downswing than it was on the backswing?

Sorry, Im just lost.

[sean_miller]

If I was to choose one swing video sequence as garbage, that would be it.

No golf shoes, rushed, and changing things up swing to swing based on what I was seeing on the video. It felt wrong and it looked(s) wrong. Do my on-course videos show the same F'd up elements? the ball was going where I was aiming (over drawing the driver so I concur on that part).

I know it'll always appear as if the ball is starting left though, because my stance is closed to my target. Setting up slightly closed feels more comfortable to me, but not necessarily as closed as it appears in the videos. Camera angles may mislead, but they don't lie though. The setup is perhaps too closed.

I tried swinging without the high right elbow and to be honest it feels like swinging in a staight jacket. If some peole can make that work, kudos, but for me it's not gonna happen because the towel under the armpit type swing simply feels restrictive and gross.

Basically, I know my swing isn't perfect, but I average > 2.0 putts per GIR and play on relatively small greens. My putting is what keeps me from shooting consistently in the high 70s and occasionally dipping into the low 70s. Could I shoot in the 60s? On a good day I can't see a 4-iron landing and a driver, well never, so lost balls and lack of talent will always prevent that.

I've read many times that the definition of a 1-plane swing is one where the left arm angle matches the shoulder angle at the top. Too simplistic? Maybe, but that's the one I always read. Having the club travel "on plane" from 1/2 way down through impact is my target. If the club take a cirtuitous route on the way back - whatever.

Quote:

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/8/89/8906345f_sean_miller3.jpeg

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

When you guys talk about 2 plane, do you mean the club going back on one plane then on the downswing doing that thing where you bring the right arm in and having the club come in closer on the downswing than it was on the backswing?

Two plane swings are, per the guy who coined the term, where the left arm is on a different angle at the top of the backswing than the shoulders.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If I was to choose one swing video sequence as garbage, that would be it.

It's probably less different than you think. It was the best camera view I saw when I looked quickly. Anyway, not the real topic here (though again, still not sure what is...).

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've read many times that the definition of a 1-plane swing is one where the left arm angle matches the shoulder angle at the top. Too simplistic? Maybe, but that's the one I always read. Having the club travel "on plane" from 1/2 way down through impact is my target. If the club take a cirtuitous route on the way back - whatever.

I agree with on the way back. Jim Furyk, for example. Jack does it. But the other truth is that changing the backswing changes the position at the top which changes the path the club takes on the backswing. Look at yours. Your hands go outside your backswing path but your clubhead is routed inside. That's a compensation that's likely holding you back. If I were to change anything there it'd simply be to eliminate or minimize that compensation. You'd keep swinging on a steep/upright plane.

But again, this isn't about your swing.

[mdl]

Unless you have incredible talent, I'd say that it's near impossible to get near scratch 100% on "feel", with 0 understanding of the mechanics and anatomy of the swing.  Given that, and the fact that everyone's body and skill and athletic history is different, there are going to be different thoughts and emphases and prioritizations that help everyone improve at a given point in their golf journey.  My view is obviously only based on my experience, and I'm generally an above average though not elite athlete (ie, I was a good DIII athlete, maybe could've been a good low-level DI athlete without a major high school injury).  But with that aside, if you've spent the time to have at least a decent understanding of the various things that go into getting to impact consistently in a way that lets you hit the shots you want, I've never found it all that difficult to see whether an instructor is going to jive well with my personal and swing style.

Given, I've only taken lessons from 3 instructors, and never more than two from any, just for financial reasons.  But I can tell you that two of those could have helped me if I'd stayed on with them, and one couldn't have.  And those two good ones both gave me a few tips just in a lesson or two that really helped me focus on the major things that were keeping me from improving at the time.  If you show up with a just God-awful swing, then you probably don't have a deep understanding of what might help you improve, so you have to kind of roll the dice with someone who strikes you as knowledgeable and successful as a coach and let them totally remake your swing and hope it works out well for you.

But if you're a decent to solid player (say something like 8/9-15/17 HC) looking to take that next big step, then you probably have some understanding of the swing and have a basic approach you're comfortable with in your body, and as Erik has said many times, a good instructor will see that and try to build from your natural tendencies and strengths towards a more consistent, effective swing.  In that situation it should be pretty obvious if you get a lesson or two with an instructor who's not really taking your current strengths and body type and whatnot into account and is going to try to force you into a one size fits all swing that might not work for you.

As the obvious example, you'll notice that in Erik's comments on peoples videos, he's never just going through every single difference between the poster's swing and an "ideal" S&T;/Golf Evolution swing and telling them to make changes to be like that "ideal" swing.  He has an understanding of what things constitute building blocks of one of the different possible ways to have an effective, consistent swing, and will point out the major things that won't fit into any of those possible ways of building such a swing.  It should be pretty clear after a lesson or two if an instructor has that kind of understanding and approach or not.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I tried swinging without the high right elbow and to be honest it feels like swinging in a staight jacket. If some peole can make that work, kudos, but for me it's not gonna happen because the towel under the armpit type swing simply feels restrictive and gross.

I appreciate this sentiment.  I struggle a lot with the restrictive feeling of tying the arms to the body and then just turning your body.  I think body types play a big role in this.  I'm fairly tall, 6'3 with proportional arm length, and relatively large arms.  I notice that a lot of the guys like Mahan, Hogan, Charlie Wi, etc. are average height arm arm length/weight making it easier to rotate the additional mass.  I might be able to make a case for it, explaining why I'm struggling with it so much, except that this guy seems to be doing pretty well this year and he's taller than me, though not nearly as big:

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by iacas

Two plane swings are, per the guy who coined the term, where the left arm is on a different angle at the top of the backswing than the shoulders.

I guess Im one planer, for the most part.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by iacas

But again, this isn't about your swing.

True, but this thread is about the questioning of the value of lessons... And I think you two have provided a pretty cool example of how interesting and fun it can potentially be to be working with an instructor. Perhaps the terms you guys are using aren't yet known to the newer members*, but this is a good nail clipping of what it's like to have someone legitimately analyze one's swing.

So perhaps this is on topic

* This is an educated assumption, but Erik very likely would start off by using simpler language to a newer golfer during a lesson. Important to add this bit. But as the golfer's swing and knowledge progresses, the language and tips become more sophisticated.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

* This is an educated assumption, but Erik very likely would start off by using simpler language to a newer golfer during a lesson. Important to add this bit. But as the golfer's swing and knowledge progresses, the language and tips become more sophisticated.

Of course. How I talk here versus how I talk to another instructor versus how I talk to a student is as different as the day is long. Or, this time of year where I am, as the day is short. ;-)

[mvmac]

Ok here is the thread Sean brought up that I recommended a "one-plane" swing or a "2-plane" http://thesandtrap.com/t/54014/my-swing-nickolasjt

I used many players as examples, only one pic of a S&T; player.  He wanted a "tour" looking swing and hit it farther.  Also getting ready for college golf.  Gave him a recommendation for his neck tilt and feel I explained why.  The best way I know how to hit it farther is to hit it more solid.  IMO the best way to do that would be to make less compensations, neck/eye line were of and there is a sequencing issue at the top of the golfer's swing, arms lift while the pivot stalls, right elbows lags behind on downswing.  Jack took and hands in and then more up but had the pieces moving together.  The golfer in the thread also didn't create enough depth, leads to more rotation of the forearms, leads to the issues I just mentioned.  These are JUST recommendations I gave, he did post his swing up looking for advice and said he's hitting the ball great after he put some changes into the mix.  Obviously I'm working on little information here in terms of getting more distance, don't have Trackman numbers, only a dtl view etc.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

I saw a couple videos about the plane thing.

So If my club shaft is basically pointing at the ball line as it comes into the 90 degree position would that indicate a one plane swing ?

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

True, but this thread is about the questioning of the value of lessons... And I think you two have provided a pretty cool example of how interesting and fun it can potentially be to be working with an instructor. Perhaps the terms you guys are using aren't yet known to the newer members*, but this is a good nail clipping of what it's like to have someone legitimately analyze one's swing.

So perhaps this is on topic

* This is an educated assumption, but Erik very likely would start off by using simpler language to a newer golfer during a lesson. Important to add this bit. But as the golfer's swing and knowledge progresses, the language and tips become more sophisticated.

Keep it going guys.  JetFan got it right.  I am learning a lot about styles of instruction and what sort of instructor might fit my needs by reading all this.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Ok here is the thread Sean brought up that I recommended a "one-plane" swing or a "2-plane" http://thesandtrap.com/t/54014/my-swing-nickolasjt

I used many players as examples, only one pic of a S&T; player.  He wanted a "tour" looking swing and hit it farther.  Also getting ready for college golf.  Gave him a recommendation for his neck tilt and feel I explained why.  The best way I know how to hit it farther is to hit it more solid.  IMO the best way to do that would be to make less compensations, neck/eye line were of and there is a sequencing issue at the top of the golfer's swing, arms lift while the pivot stalls, right elbows lags behind on downswing.  Jack took and hands in and then more up but had the pieces moving together.  The golfer in the thread also didn't create enough depth (lack of angular momentum), leads to more rotation of the forearms, leads to the issues I just mentioned.  These are JUST recommendations I gave, he did post his swing up looking for advice and said he's hitting the ball great after he put some changes into the mix.  Obviously I'm working on little information here in terms of getting more distance, don't have Trackman numbers, only a dtl view etc.

Thank you - appreciate the followup (added meat). If there's something worth working on, I'd want to know why. I'll be the first to admit that suggestions of lowering the arm position at the top is too cookie cutter for me and I tend to reject that suggestion, even though since wasn't my swing or my swing thread, I really have no place to do it. Since I see few people in person who can do it properly, whenever I see that tucked in right elbow I struggle to see how someone hits the ball a long way like that. Kuchar's swing makes me wonder, "I get it with the irons, but why swing that way with a driver in your hand?". Obviously the results speak for themselves in his case (and others). Obviously there's plenty of  data to back this up.

Anyway, like I said, I do appreciate the followup information and considering our respective credentials, the time.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

f lowering the arm position at the top is too cookie cutter for me and I tend to reject that suggestion, even though since wasn't my swing or my swing thread, I really have no place to do it. Since I see few people in person who can do it properly, whenever I see that tucked in right elbow I struggle to see how someone hits the ball a long way like that.

Fair enough, to clarify I think there should be space between the right elbow and rib cage, elbow kind of orbits the rib cage but keep the upper part of the arm connected, let's say like Charlie Hoffman.  Anyway, just wanted to add what I was seeing in terms of depth and use a couple swings you've sited, Nicklaus and Sadlowski, good examples at the top of being 2 planers but still getting depth

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Since I see few people in person who can do it properly, whenever I see that tucked in right elbow I struggle to see how someone hits the ball a long way like that. Kuchar's swing makes me wonder, "I get it with the irons, but why swing that way with a driver in your hand?". Obviously the results speak for themselves in his case (and others). Obviously there's plenty of  data to back this up.

FWIW, Kuchar is really low. He takes it back "okay" and then goes really low from there. He has curve control issues (if you consider the D-Plane and how the vertical shaft plane changes the "out" portion this'll make sense).

[newtogolf]

Great thread guys, I look forward to the day when my swing is at the point where I've only got one or two problems you guys can help me out with or I can even add something more constructive than encouraging you all to continue.