Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[rustyredcab]

I never knew I had a compass on my iPhone until I read this thread. Maybe my old 3G did not. For what it is worth, I found it yesterday and turned it on. I was on a road (stopped at a light) near where I grew up. The road runs dead straight North/South. The iPhone compass had North at about 9:30 instead of 12:00. Glad I was not lost in the woods. The maps function did have a correct North reading. So, I could secretly access my map function to find North, then stealthily get weather and wind from the nearest airport within the last 30 minutes or whenever it is updated to the app, and really have an edge on the field. I see why phones using GPS are banned. We cannot be trusted in the same way we are trusted by just asking me if I ran my hand over the green to test the grain like and taking my word for it even though it looked like I did it on camera. Honor is the way we rule for touching the green but honor is not enough to regulate smart phones.

[x129]

So if I measure the slope by taking the GPS coordinates and sending them to a server to get the altitude at those points (and hence the slope) that is legal because I didn't measure the slope using the phone?   I would interpert this as getting outside info (i.e. talking to your coach during a round) and against the rules.

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

I think the key word here is "Measure". Can the phone measure distance?? Yes it can. Can the phone, with the right app, measure slope?? Yes it can. Can the phone with a compass installed tell you where north is?? Yes is can. Can the phone measure wind speed, temperature, humidity?? NO it cant!!! I think with the use of the word "measure", from what I understand, I cant see why a phone would be considered non conforming provided it does not have a compass or level measuring capabilities if you have GPS apps installed...

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129

Quote:

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

I think the key word here is "Measure". Can the phone measure distance?? Yes it can. Can the phone, with the right app, measure slope?? Yes it can. Can the phone with a compass installed tell you where north is?? Yes is can. Can the phone measure wind speed, temperature, humidity?? NO it cant!!! I think with the use of the word "measure", from what I understand, I cant see why a phone would be considered non conforming provided it does not have a compass or level measuring capabilities if you have GPS apps installed...

So if I measure the slope by taking the GPS coordinates and sending them to a server to get the altitude at those points (and hence the slope) that is legal because I didn't measure the slope using the phone?

No, it is illegal because you used your phone to measure something (the altitude) at your location. Weather data is measured elsewhere.

Quote:

I would interpert this as getting outside info (i.e. talking to your coach during a round) and against the rules.

Getting the current hockey scores is getting outside info but it's legal because it doesn't help your game. The argument being made here by some is that weather data from a different location won't help your game, therefore it's legal (since it wasn't measured at your location). Apparently not only those in this thread have differing opinions on that, so do rules officials.

What it all boils down to is no matter what your interpretation of the rule, it is poorly worded and ambiguous if meant to disallow all weather apps (not to mention unenforceable).

[Rulesman]

My contact in this case is the 'Manager - Rules of Golf' for the R&A.; I don't know what the status of the USGA guys are but their office is manned by many people who cannot give official answers.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by iacas

I suspect you'll want to keep following up on that, because seven USGA folks I've talked to state the opposite. A weather app is illegal.

The wind (or temperature, etc.) IS measured, the app simply reports the values. In other words, they report the "measurement." You're requesting the measurement and it's reported to you. Your phone doesn't need an actual anemometer for it to be illegal, it simply has to report the measured value.

I have just phoned my contact back.

It has to measure the value itself. Without a weather app on your phone you may access the internet via your phone and simply look at the local weather details. There is no breach in doing that. The weather app is simply short-cutting and and filtering the significant bits.

It and the internet weather site are simply showing/reporting a value not measured by the device. The device has to have the facility to do the measuring for there to be a breach.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

My contact in this case is the 'Manager - Rules of Golf' for the R&A.; I don't know what the status of the USGA guys are but their office is manned by many people who cannot give official answers.

Well, I'm going to take the words and logic of the people I've talked to.

If what you're saying is true, more phones would be legal because none of them include anemometers or even external temperature sensors.

One little problem: most smart phones include hardware to measure slope and direction (compass), whether the apps are installed or not which shows you the measurements. So, oops, back to them being illegal again. Just because I don't put a digital "level" program on my phone doesn't mean the phone can't measure the slope. That functionality is simply "disabled" or "turned off". The phone's still got the capability to measure slope (accelerometers, etc.) and direction (compass).

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I have just phoned my contact back.

It has to measure the value itself. Without a weather app on your phone you may access the internet via your phone and simply look at the local weather details. There is no breach in doing that. The weather app is simply short-cutting and and filtering the significant bits.

It and the internet weather site are simply showing/reporting a value not measured by the device. The device has to have the facility to do the measuring for there to be a breach.

I still think you're wrong about that. No phones measure the temperature or wind speed or direction, but the USGA and R&A; have seen fit to ban them.

In fact, I imagine I feel as strongly that you're wrong as you feel that I'm wrong.

But then I just bring up the compass/slope thing above, and your phone's illegal again even if what you're saying is true (which, to be clear, I don't believe it to be).

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Well, I'm going to take the words and logic of the people I've talked to.

Note that that's the same logic that says using a phone for one allowed thing (calls, text) if it contains a banned app (weather) is legal, but using a phone for another allowed thing (DMD) with a banned app (weather) is illegal. I wouldn't call that logical.

Originally Posted by iacas

If what you're saying is true, more phones would be legal because none of them include anemometers or even external temperature sensors.

In making that comment you seem to be saying that would be an issue - is that true? If so, what's the issue? if phones did have such sensors then they would of course be illegal, assuming an associated app could display the data they were obtaining.

Originally Posted by iacas

One little problem: most smart phones include hardware to measure slope and direction (compass), whether the apps are installed or not which shows you the measurements. So, oops, back to them being illegal again. Just because I don't put a digital "level" program on my phone doesn't mean the phone can't measure the slope. That functionality is simply "disabled" or "turned off". The phone's still got the capability to measure slope (accelerometers, etc.) and direction (compass).

I don't see that as a problem at all. The wording of the rule is " there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used. "  If you haven't installed a feature or app that allows you to obtain a value that the hardware is capable of measuring, there's no information available that can affect your play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I have just phoned my contact back.

It has to measure the value itself. Without a weather app on your phone you may access the internet via your phone and simply look at the local weather details. There is no breach in doing that. The weather app is simply short-cutting and and filtering the significant bits.

It and the internet weather site are simply showing/reporting a value not measured by the device. The device has to have the facility to do the measuring for there to be a breach.

I still think you're wrong about that. No phones measure the temperature or wind speed or direction, but the USGA and R&A; have seen fit to ban them.

I reject your premise, since that's what's under debate here. Unless I've missed something, the USGA and R&A; have only banned phones with prohibited features. The question we're debating is if weather apps are prohibited features.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The question we're debating is if weather apps are prohibited features.

Exactly.

[x129]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

No, it is illegal because you used your phone to measure something (the altitude) at your location. Weather data is measured elsewhere.

Getting the current hockey scores is getting outside info but it's legal because it doesn't help your game. The argument being made here by some is that weather data from a different location won't help your game, therefore it's legal (since it wasn't measured at your location). Apparently not only those in this thread have differing opinions on that, so do rules officials.

What it all boils down to is no matter what your interpretation of the rule, it is poorly worded and ambiguous if meant to disallow all weather apps (not to mention unenforceable).

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by x129

No my phone isn't measuring altitude as it doesn't have the sensor (much like it can't measure wind speed). But you can get altitude from location (altitude doesn't change at a given point very often). In theory you could store all the data in your yardage book. Obviously any of this stuff is really pushing the spirit of the rules.

Hmm, I still disagree. By measuring location you are measuring altitude, given you have a database that associates one with the other. (And allowed GPS apps don't give you the altitude measurement.)

In contrast, you are not measuring weather at your location by accessing data that was measured somewhere else.

[jgreen85]

Man, making rules sucks. People will always debate what the rule means. Wouldn't it be great if we could just say, "Don't look up information about wind speed, altitude, etc." and then trust that the person won't do it? Man, if only golf was an honorable game played by people with honor.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

A weather app does not measure anything which will help the player calculate the effective distance.

The joint statement includes the following:

A very important proviso of this permission is that the device must measure distance only; it must not measure other conditions such as wind speed or direction, the slope of the ground or the temperature.

The device has the capability of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature, etc),

Was wondering when that would be brought up.  The wording could certainly be construed to mean that so long as the device doesn't MEASURE anything, that it is legal.  And no current weather app (yes, I realize there are other apps that do this, but they are not weather apps) measure a dang thing.  They report.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by iacas

One little problem: most smart phones include hardware to measure slope and direction (compass), whether the apps are installed or not which shows you the measurements. So, oops, back to them being illegal again. Just because I don't put a digital "level" program on my phone doesn't mean the phone can't measure the slope. That functionality is simply "disabled" or "turned off". The phone's still got the capability to measure slope (accelerometers, etc.) and direction (compass).

I follow your reasoning on most of this, and while we don't agree, I can see where you are coming from.  But the above, I have to say I think you have completely wrong.  Yes, the compass on the iPhone makes it illegal because it is an APP that cannot be removed.  However, assuming it COULD be, and that no other app on the phone could access the information, stating that the phone had the ability, given the correct app, to measure such information makes it illegal is not backed up by the current rules.

[quote]A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e., it must measure distance only). 
In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used , would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used .[/quote]

You are, I assuming, trying to point to the bolded part above and saying that the phone's innate ability to measure direction based on GPS and Accellerometer and whatnot make it illegal even if there is no app to access the data.  I would point to the second bolded part of the statement and argue that "that, if used" takes into consideration the ABILITY TO USE said app or feature.  The fact that an app exists to measure wind speed and direction via the iPhone's microphone does not enter into the conversation if I don't have the app installed, just as the fact that the iPhone has an app that can display a compass if said app is not installed.

Again, moot point as the app can't be uninstalled, but we are arguing some serious nits here anyway. :)

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I have just received a phone call from the R&A; confirming that a non conforming function has to be able to physically measure or gauge the information itself. Viewing or receiving weather related information from the web (say) is OK.

Cannot be allowed, as I stated earlier. I put an email to my contact as well, so far I have not received an answer but will get back as soon as I get one.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Note that that's the same logic that says using a phone for one allowed thing (calls, text) if it contains a banned app (weather) is legal, but using a phone for another allowed thing (DMD) with a banned app (weather) is illegal. I wouldn't call that logical.

I think the number of times I've posted in this has led people to think I care more than I do about this. :-)

You wouldn't. I would. Now that we've got that cleared up...

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

if phones did have such sensors then they would of course be illegal, assuming an associated app could display the data they were obtaining.

No app required, actually, if the phone is being used as a DMD. The device is capable of measuring, and is thus illegal.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I don't see that as a problem at all. The wording of the rule is "there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used."  If you haven't installed a feature or app that allows you to obtain a value that the hardware is capable of measuring, there's no information available that can affect your play.

The USGA disagrees with you. The device still has hardware capable of measuring the stuff. Same with the Leupold GX-IV. You can render the slope data completely "un-viewable" but the device still contains the hardware, and is thus, illegal.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I reject your premise, since that's what's under debate here. Unless I've missed something, the USGA and R&A; have only banned phones with prohibited features. The question we're debating is if weather apps are prohibited features.

The USGA rules officials and rules committee people I've talked to say yes, weather apps are prohibited features. I care little enough about this that I'm taking their word for it. It was unanimous.

Originally Posted by jwrussell

I follow your reasoning on most of this, and while we don't agree, I can see where you are coming from.  But the above, I have to say I think you have completely wrong.  Yes, the compass on the iPhone makes it illegal because it is an APP that cannot be removed.  However, assuming it COULD be, and that no other app on the phone could access the information, stating that the phone had the ability, given the correct app, to measure such information makes it illegal is not backed up by the current rules.

[quote]A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e., it must measure distance only). 
In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules, whether or not they are actually used.[/quote]

You are, I assuming, trying to point to the bolded part above and saying that the phone's innate ability to measure direction based on GPS and Accellerometer and whatnot make it illegal even if there is no app to access the data.  I would point to the second bolded part of the statement and argue that "that, if used" takes into consideration the ABILITY TO USE said app or feature.  The fact that an app exists to measure wind speed and direction via the iPhone's microphone does not enter into the conversation if I don't have the app installed, just as the fact that the iPhone has an app that can display a compass if said app is not installed.

Again, moot point as the app can't be uninstalled, but we are arguing some serious nits here anyway. :)

The device is capable of measuring the stuff. You can't "view" the slope data on a Leupold GX-IV but the device can measure it, so it's illegal. You've effectively "uninstalled the software that displays the slope measurement" on the GX-IV by throwing away the yellow face plate, but the device still "measures." The hardware to measure the things is still installed, and that's what makes the device illegal. That there's an app that can or can't be installed is irrelevant.

A "feature" can be hardware, too. Heck, they specifically say "features OR applications" which draws the distinction there.

Once again (at least for today), I'm out. I'm satisfied with my understanding of the rule and will likely only be interested again if someone is able to produce something credible that counters the things I've said. Until then, I'm taking the strictest definitions possible, because then I can never be in jeopardy of breaking the rules.

[Rulesman]

This from the Equipment Standards Dept of the R&A; following an enquiry some time ago by a national rules official colleague from elsewhere in Europe.

I refer to your email below, which has been under consideration and I regret the delayed response.
Please be advised that we are in agreement with the position you have taken – i.e. reference to a general weather forecast would be permissible, but the measurement of actual conditions such as wind or temperature would not be permitted.

As I am not in the USGA area I have asked other colleagues over there to make a formal enquiry of the USGA.

It is of course not unknown for the USGA and R&A; to make different 'unofficial' rulings or interpretations but these are normally minor in nature. (Official being those published on their websites).

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

No app required, actually, if the phone is being used as a DMD. The device is capable of measuring, and is thus illegal.

The USGA disagrees with you. The device still has hardware capable of measuring the stuff. Same with the Leupold GX-IV. You can render the slope data completely "un-viewable" but the device still contains the hardware, and is thus, illegal.

This creates something of a problem. Any GPS-capable device can be used as a compass: it cannot make a static determination of direction, but it's quite common to assume that a moving user is carrying the GPS in the viewing orientation and use their velocity to determine the orientation of the device.

Furthermore, a device with a microphone can often be used as an anemometer by listening to the wind whistle in the mic. It's not very accurate, but quite certainly could be used to approximately measure the wind speed.

It's probably possible to measure the temperature at least crudely using some of these devices as well, even if there's not a specifically-designed thermometer component in the hardware.

So if you really want to get down to that level, it'd be hard to say that any PDA or smart phone could possibly be legal. The hardware in any of them is capable of making illegal measurements. If that's their intent, there are easier ways to accomplish that. It seems much more likely to me that "features" is being offered as an alternative description of an "application" in that phrase. I.e., a user-accessible mode that actually makes the measurement and displays the result. A piece of hardware without software support installed doesn't strike me as matching the sense of "feature" in that sentence.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

No app required, actually, if the phone is being used as a DMD. The device is capable of measuring, and is thus illegal.

The USGA disagrees with you. The device still has hardware capable of measuring the stuff. Same with the Leupold GX-IV. You can render the slope data completely "un-viewable" but the device still contains the hardware, and is thus, illegal.

...The hardware in any of them is capable of making illegal measurements. If that's their intent, there are easier ways to accomplish that. It seems much more likely to me that "features" is being offered as an alternative description of an "application" in that phrase. I.e., a user-accessible mode that actually makes the measurement and displays the result. A piece of hardware without software support installed doesn't strike me as matching the sense of "feature" in that sentence.

Exactly. In fact, a good example of this is the GX-IV itself: It slope feature can only be enabled with the easily visible yellow faceplate. If the faceplate is not on, the device has been ruled legal. The capability of measuring slope still exists. The capability of accessing it does not. This is exactly the same as a phone that has a compass, level, or anything else of that nature, that does not have a user-interface available to access that info.

Side to Erik: I care about this as little as you do, I'm sure - this is merely an intellectual exercise until/unless there is a definitive, unified, published stance on the issue by the rules bodies.