What exactly is a pitch?

[lostmyballs]

I'm having trouble executing an accurate pitch shot, possibly because I can't wrap my head around the concept so well.

Is it just a mini-swing? Or are there unique adjustments that must be made which are absent in a full iron shot? Finally, how is the pitch mechanically distinct from a flop shot? I suppose my short-game work is hindered the most by not knowing the difference between shot types from 60 yards and in. Could anyone help me untangle the concepts of pitch, flop, and, say, a full swing with a lob wedge?

Thanks!

Still searching...

lostmyballs

[sk golf]

For a pitch shot you want to let the bounce of the club slide instead of dig.  A key for me, is to keep my arms relaxed to I can get a "float loading" feel.  As far as different distances, the distance of your back swing and follow through will affect that.  This video should help.

[Stretch]

If you're looking for simple definitions: a chip is a shot played around the green that rolls out further than it carries through the air, a pitch carries further than it rolls out and a flop is all carry and no roll at all. You decrease the ratio of roll to carry (mostly) by raising the trajectory of the ball and you raise the trajectory of the ball by adding loft to the shot -- either through club selection or technique. Have a good look at this: http://thesandtrap.com/t/54556/short-gametrajectories

[dsc123]

You should also check out the "Quickie Pitching Video" that Erik posted.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Stretch

If you're looking for simple definitions: a chip is a shot played around the green that rolls out further than it carries through the air, a pitch carries further than it rolls out and a flop is all carry and no roll at all.

FWIW I've never been a fan of that definition because I've hit chips into soft greens slanted towards me that didn't roll half as far as they flew and vice versa: pitches that run out 2x as long as the ball stayed in the air.

I prefer this definition if you must keep it short: pitches are played with the bounce, chips are played with the leading edge.

[Stretch]

First order nit pickery.

Maybe we can coopt some of the S&T; descriptive modifiers?

Ceteris paribus: Putt -- carry the least, roll the most. Chip -- carry less, roll more. Pitch -- carry more, roll less. Lob/Flop -- carry the most, roll the least.

[Brunogolf]

I really don't understand the quick hitch of the wrists in the youtube clip? Easy way to cause deceleration and chunky chip/pitches.   Isn't that the anti S&T?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

I really don't understand the quick hitch of the wrists in the youtube clip? Easy way to cause deceleration and chunky chip/pitches.   Isn't that the anti S&T;?

It better be Like Erik said you're using the bounce, so the technique has to change, softer arms, keeping the knees flexed.  Weight is still forward.  Here's a video I did, shots 3-4 are what most would consider a "standard" pitch.

[Brunogolf]

why not just increse the loft?shaft lean? That is wayyyyyy too much effort to hit a shot.  From reading your posts I really like your efforts but why not hit a simple shot?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

why not just increse the loft?shaft lean? That is wayyyyyy too much effort to hit a shot.  From reading your posts I really like your efforts but why not hit a simple shot?

Thanks, I get what you're saying.  That is what I'm doing, changing loft and shaft lean to hit 5 different shots with the same club,  and describing how the stroke's characteristics change.  Just like on the course there are so many different hole locations, surfaces, lies you have to adjust to, you rarely get a "standard" pitch or chip.  So it's easier to understand how to have consistent contact by using the bounce, which is effective off tight lies, deep rough, bunkers, etc.  Just providing detail to those that want it because it's coming from the best short game instructors.

I did put this video into a Thread with this specific note: "Important to note that you don't have to follow the bullet point below exactly to hit these shots.  Lots of detail, just going over all the changes I'm making to hit the desired shots.  Priority would be how the arms are changing, from straightish to soft in order to engage the bounce."

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Maybe we can coopt some of the S&T descriptive modifiers?

No thanks. :)

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

I really don't understand the quick hitch of the wrists in the youtube clip? Easy way to cause deceleration and chunky chip/pitches.   Isn't that the anti S&T?

S&T isn't pitching. Weight stays forward, head pretty stable, but that's about it. And truthfully my head will rotate through before impact on a lot of pitch shots. So maybe not even that part holds.

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

why not just increse the loft?shaft lean? That is wayyyyyy too much effort to hit a shot.  From reading your posts I really like your efforts but why not hit a simple shot?

Frankly, a pitch is the simplest shot out there outside of a tap-in.

1. Hinge.

2. Pivot.

See? The rest of the things you can do are permutations that allow you to vary the shot characteristics. You'll learn them all on your own, and you won't have to think about them on the course. The basic technique applies, and you vary things like how low your hands are, how wide your feet are, where the handle is positioned, how much you hinge and pivot, etc.

[Brunogolf]

Why not preset open and eliminate all of that excessive movement shown in the clip?  That could also cut down on how much one would have to hinge te wrist and be far more consistent no?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

Why not preset open and eliminate all of that excessive movement shown in the clip?  That could also cut down on how much one would have to hinge te wrist and be far more consistent no?

Presetting something isn't the same as getting there dynamically. The wrist hinge is necessary because you still need to generate speed. In a pitch the clubhead glances the ball, and a lot of the glancing blow's energy is vertical. It's almost the exact opposite of, say, a putt.

I've found pitching using this method is incredibly consistent, and I dare say our students have as well. We throw it in at the end of some of our full-swing schools and have had students tell us they'd have paid the full-day school price for just the pitching section it's so great.

I'm not sure you're really understanding what we're saying in the videos (I think Mike and I have videos in this thread, right?).

To be sure, there are times when a "chip" is the smart play. But I find myself using "pitching" (using the bounce) around golf courses FAR more often than using chipping, and a big part of the reason why is because it's "dummy-proof" and so consistent.

[Brunogolf]

This would work off of tight lies but why not go single move and just change clubs for loft then run out?  Why not allow the swing itself to create speed rather then wrist hinge?  This is far more used at higher levels and would seem easier to repeat no?

[Brunogolf]

And all the right side release? Would you not have distance control issues with have the right foot come off th ground so rapidly? There are just so many moving parts in the clips.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

This would work off of tight lies but why not go single move and just change clubs for loft then run out?  Why not allow the swing itself to create speed rather then wrist hinge?  This is far more used at higher levels and would seem easier to repeat no?

It works off of all sorts of lies. And why not change clubs? Because you can only carry 14, sometimes you can't let the ball run out, and because it's an easier shot than using the leading edge. I can hit pitch shots with all of my short irons and wedges.

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

And all the right side release? Would you not have distance control issues with have the right foot come off th ground so rapidly? There are just so many moving parts in the clips.

At this point I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing.

No, again, I have no distance control issues, and the right foot doesn't come off the ground much at all, and often stays on the ground for shorter pitches. Mike's foot stays flatter than mine, Dave's stays a bit flatter than mine, largely because I have a bit more knee flex in setup. There are precisely the same number of moving parts as in every other sort of pitch.

If you can't be more specific, then I don't know how much more we can help you to understand what the videos are about. I think they do a decent job of explaining things pretty well. Pick up Stan Utley's book. It's similar to how we teach pitching.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

And all the right side release? Would you not have distance control issues with have the right foot come off th ground so rapidly? There are just so many moving parts in the clips.

Originally Posted by iacas

At this point I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing.

No, again, I have no distance control issues, and the right foot doesn't come off the ground much at all, and often stays on the ground for shorter pitches. Mike's foot stays flatter than mine, Dave's stays a bit flatter than mine, largely because I have a bit more knee flex in setup. There are precisely the same number of moving parts as in every other sort of pitch.

If you can't be more specific, then I don't know how much more we can help you to understand what the videos are about. I think they do a decent job of explaining things pretty well. Pick up Stan Utley's book. It's similar to how we teach pitching.

I'm not sure if he's talking about how I'm adjusting my stance for each shot in my video when he says "moving parts".  But like I said I'm going into pretty detailed explanation of how I'm going about hitting the shots.  I don't see the right foot coming off rapidly.

Do these pitching motions have any less moving parts than mine or Erik's?

[Brunogolf]

After watching the clips closer I see the need for the extra move in body is used to slow the club down.  Because of the excessive hinge you need to kick your right foot inorder to slow the club down.

IMHO this is way to much motion and would lead to serious inconsistencies under any kind of pressure and just too much effort really for a simple shot.  Why not just take the legs right out of it and switch clubs according to the shot you want to hit?  And there is a huge difference in run out from an LW to PW so the 14 clubs is a silly argument.

Also what would you do if the lie was poor there is no chance you would move that much as contact needs to be so perfect.