Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee

[GJBenn85]

My instructor is very nontraditional and really criticizes what is considered "ideal" in books and among most instructors.  He has always advocated with me straightening (though not fully) the back knee, and even allowing a bit of flex in the leading arm on the back swing.  Based on your video, it is good to know I am on the right path because almost everything I am practicing right now is contradictory to everything I have read and seen from other instructors.

[golfingal]

Quote:

Great video, Mike! Thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Ummm, what video?  All I see is a still pic with print too small to read in the original post?

[Zeph]

Ummm, what video?  All I see is a still pic with print too small to read in the original post?

[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dWxbIMa-fM]Myth of the Right Knee Flexed [/URL] [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dZn0LVGGZM]Myth of the Right Knee Flexed 2[/URL]

[golfingal]

Thanks - I ended up trying FOUR BROWSERS before I could see the links.

NOT WORKING -

Safari

Firefox

Opera

WORKED -

Chrome

[busapp]

I do not know all of the reasons why the golf pros at my home course are so anti the Stack and Tilt method and ideas.  It is interesting that you had to distance yourself from S&T; in your introduction.  One of the contributions of Andy and Mike was to wade through hundreds (or thousands) of old golf swing videos to arrive at the same conclusion regarding the right leg.  I find that some people do not straighten the right leg, and this leads to the swing being more "armsy" with less of a divot.  Your video here does a great job explaining why the right leg straightening has a beneficial effect:  more hip rotation, more power from the ground, and less wear and tear on the backbone.  May I point out something else, from Physics.  It would appear that the center of gravity of the body raises somewhat when the right leg straightens.  This needs to occur with the head in place.  As the right leg bends again, you have the center of gravity lowering.  At the top of the swing, with the center of gravity up, you have what is called "Potential Energy."  As the center of gravity lowers, you use this potential energy by allowing it to swing along the swing plane and hit the ball, transferring this Potential energy to the ball.  It is like a pendulum.  As the pendulum goes to the end of the swing, it stores potential energy.  When it returns to bottom, it releases the potential energy in the form of momentum (and energy by the formula mass times velocity squared).  It is the transference of the potential energy of the raised center of gravity into the ball that allows for less stress on the body muscles, and more of a pendulum effect.  Like Ernie Els, The Big Easy.  Thanks a lot for your very informative video and fine work.

[Slimmonty]

IMO The headline of this article is misleading. "The Myth of Keeping the Rear Knee Flexed" does clearly suggest that retaining flex in your knee is incorrect. Later posts clarify that you mean reduced flex but the title doesn't imply that. Perhaps the title should be "The Myth of keeping the same level of flex in your rear knee"?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Slimmonty

IMO The headline of this article is misleading. "The Myth of Keeping the Rear Knee Flexed" does clearly suggest that retaining flex in your knee is incorrect. Later posts clarify that you mean reduced flex but the title doesn't imply that. Perhaps the title should be "The Myth of keeping the same level of flex in your rear knee"?

I just got the SnT book and I was a little surprised that they didn't make much of a point about clarifying "lose some flexion relative to address but not locked" , if I hadn't been familiar with mvmac's thread I would have assumed that they wanted me to straighten the leg completely.

Edit* the TST is an excellent resource to use along side the SnT manual.

[canadianpro]

For the newcomers, I would also mention the word is "straightening" not "stiiffening"

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by busapp

I do not know all of the reasons why the golf pros at my home course are so anti the Stack and Tilt method and ideas.  It is interesting that you had to distance yourself from S&T; in your introduction.  One of the contributions of Andy and Mike was to wade through hundreds (or thousands) of old golf swing videos to arrive at the same conclusion regarding the right leg.

"Insecurity comes from not understanding the concept." - Plato -

“If at first an idea isn't absurd there is no hope for it.” - Albert Einstein -

In my opinion, Stack and Tilt method isn't really a method.  I see it as more of a series of commonalities of some of the best players in history which make up swing pattern.

[rmfslp]

just watch the video and can´t wait to try it out.

[mvmac]

Check out this article by Matt Diederichs

http://mdiederichs.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/grey-poupon-and-your-right-knee/

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Always gets a weird look from a golfer, or even anger an instructor when they hear me advocate straightening the rear knee.

Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T; guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T; over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years. Melding if you will some components of the new S&T;/TGM hitting pattern I was trying to learn with some old habits of mine. The results were catastrophic. I had for the first time in 20 years of playing golf a terrible case of the sha#ks. Can't even type the work after the last few weeks of on course misery. I saw my instructor (Eddie Cox) yesterday and it took him about 4 minutes to cure my shanks in a permanent way.

The catalyst for Shank City was my right knee flexing and sliding with my downswing. Once we straightened my right leg, balance was restored to the universe. Seriously. I immediately began hitting straight shots. He also had me flare my feet out a good bit. To allow the club to clear my straight right leg in the take away, we dropped my back foot 2-3 inches from the ball. While it seemed odd from an alignment standpoint, it made it much easier for me to straighten (and maintain) my right leg during the swing. At 6'6" 300 lbs, I am not a small guy so some of this could have been some bending of the normal rules to accommodate a gorilla swinging the club without hitting himself in the leg.

Seems the issue that caused my shanking was the right knee collapsing, in turn facilitating my right shoulder dropping, then I had a bit of a reverse pivot (or I was tilting away from the ball at any rate), then all I could do was swing out to right field. The result, hosel rocket after hosel rocket. I was literally the guy at the range everyone was watching. I played three Pinehurst area courses last week and the right side of the courses I played were lovely. Have no idea what the left side of the courses looked like. I can't believe the right leg had so much to do with it. Absolutely amazed me how simple the fix was to a trained eye. Irregardless, after my lesson, I hit the best shots of my life. A whole bucket of near perfect shots with every club in my bag. Went to the range today with the same results. I am more excited than ever to play golf. Luckily, this game is not as hard as I have been making it.

-Dan

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T; guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T; over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years. Melding if you will some components of the new S&T;/TGM hitting pattern I was trying to learn with some old habits of mine. The results were catastrophic. I had for the first time in 20 years of playing golf a terrible case of the sha#ks. Can't even type the work after the last few weeks of on course misery. I saw my instructor (Eddie Cox) yesterday and it took him about 4 minutes to cure my shanks in a permanent way.

The catalyst for Shank City was my right knee flexing and sliding with my downswing. Once we straightened my right leg, balance was restored to the universe. Seriously. I immediately began hitting straight shots. He also had me flare my feet out a good bit. To allow the club to clear my straight right leg in the take away, we dropped my back foot 2-3 inches from the ball. While it seemed odd from an alignment standpoint, it made it much easier for me to straighten (and maintain) my right leg during the swing. At 6'6" 300 lbs, I am not a small guy so some of this could have been some bending of the normal rules to accommodate a gorilla swinging the club without hitting himself in the leg.

Seems the issue that caused my shanking was the right knee collapsing, in turn facilitating my right shoulder dropping, then I had a bit of a reverse pivot (or I was tilting away from the ball at any rate), then all I could do was swing out to right field. The result, hosel rocket after hosel rocket. I was literally the guy at the range everyone was watching. I played three Pinehurst area courses last week and the right side of the courses I played were lovely. Have no idea what the left side of the courses looked like. I can't believe the right leg had so much to do with it. Absolutely amazed me how simple the fix was to a trained eye. Irregardless, after my lesson, I hit the best shots of my life. A whole bucket of near perfect shots with every club in my bag. Went to the range today with the same results. I am more excited than ever to play golf. Luckily, this game is not as hard as I have been making it.

-Dan

Good to hear Dan, Eddie sounds like he's been great for you.

Glad you like the video, the trail knee losing flexion and the forward gaining flexion allows us to do the tilt, turn and extension pieces to keep the head steady.  Hopefully, like the article I posted that Matt wrote, the debate can shift from not losing any flexion to the rate at which flex comes out of the trail knee.

[Matt Diederichs]

Thanks for posting that Mike, glad you enjoyed the read! Looks like theres a ton of info in this forum and some great posters, looking forward to digging in.

M

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T; guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T; over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years.

-Dan

I remembered you mentioned S&T; and wanted to point out that there are no students of Andy and Mike's featured in this thread.

[Danattherock]

What I was talking about was the role of the right leg in the swing. That is what this thread is about and the video was interesting. I had a lesson that focused on it the day before reading this thread. It was a significant lesson for me. Makes no difference to me if guys are S&T;, TGM, etc.. I was just reading to get insight on the role of the rear leg. In my particular case, I am learning a hitting pattern based on info from different swing methodologies, TGM and S&T; primarily. In this pattern, a straight right leg is a vital part. The result of blending new swing components with my old right knee/leg movement was catastrophic and I got a case of the shanks. Luckily, once I quit bending and sliding my right knee, the issues went away. This is all new to me and I thought the straight right leg was a S&T; component, that is why I made reference to my lesson.

-Dan

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

What I was talking about was the role of the right leg in the swing. That is what this thread is about and the video was interesting. I had a lesson that focused on it the day before reading this thread. It was a significant lesson for me. Makes no difference to me if guys are S&T;, TGM, etc.. I was just reading to get insight on the role of the rear leg. In my particular case, I am learning a hitting pattern based on info from different swing methodologies, TGM and S&T; primarily. In this pattern, a straight right leg is a vital part. The result of blending new swing components with my old right knee/leg movement was catastrophic and I got a case of the shanks. Luckily, once I quit bending and sliding my right knee, the issues went away. This is all new to me and I thought the straight right leg was a S&T; component, that is why I made reference to my lesson.

-Dan

Yes, trail knee losing flexion definitely big part of the S&T; pattern.  Can also go back to Homer(TGM) he called it standard knee action.  Homer was a Snead fan.

[nrage33]

This worked for me during my last round. Stopped hitting it fat. My follow through was all over the place though (felt kinda funny implementing the knee flex), but the ball went straight, got a lot more GIRs and I played to my handicap for the round.

Such a simple fix. Will hafta work on the follow through but so far so good. Thanks again!