Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee


Recommended Posts

Posted

My instructor is very nontraditional and really criticizes what is considered "ideal" in books and among most instructors.  He has always advocated with me straightening (though not fully) the back knee, and even allowing a bit of flex in the leading arm on the back swing.  Based on your video, it is good to know I am on the right path because almost everything I am practicing right now is contradictory to everything I have read and seen from other instructors.

Always changing:

 

Driver: Cobra S2/Nike VR Pro 10.5º

Irons: Callaway X-20 Tour 4-9i

Hybrid: Titleist 910H 19º & 21º

Wood: TaylorMade R11 3w

Putter: Odyssey White Hot

Wedges: Titleist Vokeys - 48º, 54º, 62º

 

First round: February 2011

 


Posted


Quote:

Great video, Mike! Thanks for taking the time to put it together.



Ummm, what video?  All I see is a still pic with print too small to read in the original post?


Posted


Ummm, what video?  All I see is a still pic with print too small to read in the original post?



[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dWxbIMa-fM]Myth of the Right Knee Flexed [/URL] [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dZn0LVGGZM]Myth of the Right Knee Flexed 2[/URL]

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I do not know all of the reasons why the golf pros at my home course are so anti the Stack and Tilt method and ideas.  It is interesting that you had to distance yourself from S&T in your introduction.  One of the contributions of Andy and Mike was to wade through hundreds (or thousands) of old golf swing videos to arrive at the same conclusion regarding the right leg.  I find that some people do not straighten the right leg, and this leads to the swing being more "armsy" with less of a divot.  Your video here does a great job explaining why the right leg straightening has a beneficial effect:  more hip rotation, more power from the ground, and less wear and tear on the backbone.  May I point out something else, from Physics.  It would appear that the center of gravity of the body raises somewhat when the right leg straightens.  This needs to occur with the head in place.  As the right leg bends again, you have the center of gravity lowering.  At the top of the swing, with the center of gravity up, you have what is called "Potential Energy."  As the center of gravity lowers, you use this potential energy by allowing it to swing along the swing plane and hit the ball, transferring this Potential energy to the ball.  It is like a pendulum.  As the pendulum goes to the end of the swing, it stores potential energy.  When it returns to bottom, it releases the potential energy in the form of momentum (and energy by the formula mass times velocity squared).  It is the transference of the potential energy of the raised center of gravity into the ball that allows for less stress on the body muscles, and more of a pendulum effect.  Like Ernie Els, The Big Easy.  Thanks a lot for your very informative video and fine work.

  • Upvote 1

Posted

IMO The headline of this article is misleading. "The Myth of Keeping the Rear Knee Flexed" does clearly suggest that retaining flex in your knee is incorrect. Later posts clarify that you mean reduced flex but the title doesn't imply that. Perhaps the title should be "The Myth of keeping the same level of flex in your rear knee"?


Posted


Originally Posted by Slimmonty

IMO The headline of this article is misleading. "The Myth of Keeping the Rear Knee Flexed" does clearly suggest that retaining flex in your knee is incorrect. Later posts clarify that you mean reduced flex but the title doesn't imply that. Perhaps the title should be "The Myth of keeping the same level of flex in your rear knee"?

I just got the SnT book and I was a little surprised that they didn't make much of a point about clarifying "lose some flexion relative to address but not locked" , if I hadn't been familiar with mvmac's thread I would have assumed that they wanted me to straighten the leg completely.

Edit* the TST is an excellent resource to use along side the SnT manual.

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

For the newcomers, I would also mention the word is "straightening" not "stiiffening"

PB
Canadian PGA Life Member
Peter Boyce Golf Academy
Strathroy, Ontario
:tmade:


Posted


Originally Posted by busapp

I do not know all of the reasons why the golf pros at my home course are so anti the Stack and Tilt method and ideas.  It is interesting that you had to distance yourself from S&T in your introduction.  One of the contributions of Andy and Mike was to wade through hundreds (or thousands) of old golf swing videos to arrive at the same conclusion regarding the right leg.

"Insecurity comes from not understanding the concept." - Plato -

“If at first an idea isn't absurd there is no hope for it.” - Albert Einstein -

In my opinion, Stack and Tilt method isn't really a method.  I see it as more of a series of commonalities of some of the best players in history which make up swing pattern.

  • Upvote 1

Stephan Kostelecky

Golf Instructor

Youtube


  • Moderator
Posted

Check out this article by Matt Diederichs

http://mdiederichs.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/grey-poupon-and-your-right-knee/

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted


Originally Posted by mvmac

Always gets a weird look from a golfer, or even anger an instructor when they hear me advocate straightening the rear knee.


Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years. Melding if you will some components of the new S&T/TGM hitting pattern I was trying to learn with some old habits of mine. The results were catastrophic. I had for the first time in 20 years of playing golf a terrible case of the sha#ks. Can't even type the work after the last few weeks of on course misery. I saw my instructor (Eddie Cox) yesterday and it took him about 4 minutes to cure my shanks in a permanent way.

The catalyst for Shank City was my right knee flexing and sliding with my downswing. Once we straightened my right leg, balance was restored to the universe. Seriously. I immediately began hitting straight shots. He also had me flare my feet out a good bit. To allow the club to clear my straight right leg in the take away, we dropped my back foot 2-3 inches from the ball. While it seemed odd from an alignment standpoint, it made it much easier for me to straighten (and maintain) my right leg during the swing. At 6'6" 300 lbs, I am not a small guy so some of this could have been some bending of the normal rules to accommodate a gorilla swinging the club without hitting himself in the leg.

Seems the issue that caused my shanking was the right knee collapsing, in turn facilitating my right shoulder dropping, then I had a bit of a reverse pivot (or I was tilting away from the ball at any rate), then all I could do was swing out to right field. The result, hosel rocket after hosel rocket. I was literally the guy at the range everyone was watching. I played three Pinehurst area courses last week and the right side of the courses I played were lovely. Have no idea what the left side of the courses looked like. I can't believe the right leg had so much to do with it. Absolutely amazed me how simple the fix was to a trained eye. Irregardless, after my lesson, I hit the best shots of my life. A whole bucket of near perfect shots with every club in my bag. Went to the range today with the same results. I am more excited than ever to play golf. Luckily, this game is not as hard as I have been making it.

-Dan


  • Moderator
Posted


Originally Posted by Danattherock

Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years. Melding if you will some components of the new S&T/TGM hitting pattern I was trying to learn with some old habits of mine. The results were catastrophic. I had for the first time in 20 years of playing golf a terrible case of the sha#ks. Can't even type the work after the last few weeks of on course misery. I saw my instructor (Eddie Cox) yesterday and it took him about 4 minutes to cure my shanks in a permanent way.

The catalyst for Shank City was my right knee flexing and sliding with my downswing. Once we straightened my right leg, balance was restored to the universe. Seriously. I immediately began hitting straight shots. He also had me flare my feet out a good bit. To allow the club to clear my straight right leg in the take away, we dropped my back foot 2-3 inches from the ball. While it seemed odd from an alignment standpoint, it made it much easier for me to straighten (and maintain) my right leg during the swing. At 6'6" 300 lbs, I am not a small guy so some of this could have been some bending of the normal rules to accommodate a gorilla swinging the club without hitting himself in the leg.

Seems the issue that caused my shanking was the right knee collapsing, in turn facilitating my right shoulder dropping, then I had a bit of a reverse pivot (or I was tilting away from the ball at any rate), then all I could do was swing out to right field. The result, hosel rocket after hosel rocket. I was literally the guy at the range everyone was watching. I played three Pinehurst area courses last week and the right side of the courses I played were lovely. Have no idea what the left side of the courses looked like. I can't believe the right leg had so much to do with it. Absolutely amazed me how simple the fix was to a trained eye. Irregardless, after my lesson, I hit the best shots of my life. A whole bucket of near perfect shots with every club in my bag. Went to the range today with the same results. I am more excited than ever to play golf. Luckily, this game is not as hard as I have been making it.

-Dan



Good to hear Dan, Eddie sounds like he's been great for you.

Glad you like the video, the trail knee losing flexion and the forward gaining flexion allows us to do the tilt, turn and extension pieces to keep the head steady.  Hopefully, like the article I posted that Matt wrote, the debate can shift from not losing any flexion to the rate at which flex comes out of the trail knee.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted


Originally Posted by Danattherock

Thanks for the video man. That was very interesting and my finding it here tonight was most timely.

I don't consider myself a S&T guy, but I am working with an instructor with roots in S&T over the last 6-7 weeks. Had three lessons and I am now seeing some serious fruits from our labor. The right knee was one of the elements I overlooked between lesson 2 and 3 (yesterday). I had been doing some of the things, forward tilt, weight on forward foot with bent left knee, etc.. but I had been using my right knee in the same fashion as previous years.

-Dan


I remembered you mentioned S&T and wanted to point out that there are no students of Andy and Mike's featured in this thread.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

What I was talking about was the role of the right leg in the swing. That is what this thread is about and the video was interesting. I had a lesson that focused on it the day before reading this thread. It was a significant lesson for me. Makes no difference to me if guys are S&T, TGM, etc.. I was just reading to get insight on the role of the rear leg. In my particular case, I am learning a hitting pattern based on info from different swing methodologies, TGM and S&T primarily. In this pattern, a straight right leg is a vital part. The result of blending new swing components with my old right knee/leg movement was catastrophic and I got a case of the shanks. Luckily, once I quit bending and sliding my right knee, the issues went away. This is all new to me and I thought the straight right leg was a S&T component, that is why I made reference to my lesson.

-Dan


  • Moderator
Posted


Originally Posted by Danattherock

What I was talking about was the role of the right leg in the swing. That is what this thread is about and the video was interesting. I had a lesson that focused on it the day before reading this thread. It was a significant lesson for me. Makes no difference to me if guys are S&T, TGM, etc.. I was just reading to get insight on the role of the rear leg. In my particular case, I am learning a hitting pattern based on info from different swing methodologies, TGM and S&T primarily. In this pattern, a straight right leg is a vital part. The result of blending new swing components with my old right knee/leg movement was catastrophic and I got a case of the shanks. Luckily, once I quit bending and sliding my right knee, the issues went away. This is all new to me and I thought the straight right leg was a S&T component, that is why I made reference to my lesson.

-Dan



Yes, trail knee losing flexion definitely big part of the S&T pattern.  Can also go back to Homer(TGM) he called it standard knee action.  Homer was a Snead fan.

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

This worked for me during my last round. Stopped hitting it fat. My follow through was all over the place though (felt kinda funny implementing the knee flex), but the ball went straight, got a lot more GIRs and I played to my handicap for the round.

Such a simple fix. Will hafta work on the follow through but so far so good. Thanks again!

Driver: Titleist 905R w GraphiteDesign YS-6 Stiff Shaft

3 Wood: Callaway X 3 Wood 15º w Aldila NV65 Stiff Shaft
Hybrid: Callaway X 3H 21º Stiff
Irons 4 - SW: Callaway X 18 Graphite Shaft (Stiff)
Wedges: Cleveland CG12 Chrome 52º, CG 15 Chrome 60º
Putter: Odyssey Crimson 660
Balls: Titleist ProV1

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    Carl's Place
    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 610 - 2026-06-03 Got some work in between lessons today. Rare late day, teaching until 7:30pm.
    • Let's continue on… Cool. The thing is, nobody's claiming par is "reliable" and par's inclusion piggy-backs in the course rating, which is awfully close to par and, thus, brings par in to make it make sense. Once again, for those in the back… (CR - Par) just makes it really easy to know what kind of score you need to shoot to best, match, or play worse than your handicap index. Yes, when par is different, the players from the higher par tees get an extra stroke (72 vs. 71, the 72s get an extra stroke. That makes sense and is a small complication (more info at https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Committee%20Content/USGA/LG_R6d.htm). However, most of the time, this adjustment will not be needed, as many courses play to the same par for the same genders from all sets of tees. And, the rare times it is needed, par (measured in whole numbers, integers) and strokes (also whole numbers/integers) map easily and the idea is easily grasped. Dean seems to be unaware of the fact that most every golfer carries something orders of magnitude more powerful than the highest end desktop computers available the last time he consulted with the USGA in their pockets. While it is quaint that his club puts printouts by the first tee… get with the times, Dean. Look up your handicap index and course handicap in the GHIN app and get on with it. It's a better system than the one that didn't account — at all — for a difference in the playing conditions (via an algorithm, not a judgment). Dean's assertions about the "less precise system because of par" continues to make absolutely zero sense. Right, it still changed tee to tee. Now it just changes differently… and in a way that more accurately reflects the score you need to shoot to play to your handicap. Previously, a 1.1 index would get 1 stroke on a 66.7/122 par-72 course. Now they give four strokes back to the course and must shoot 68 to play to their handicap. This makes way more sense. The 18-shot difference is a pretty extreme example. Maybe a long course that also offers a par-three set of tees could play that long, but… man, that's not going to be super common. Sensationalistic much, Dean? Also, once those unhappy (complete assumption) golfers realize a) what the change shows them (playing to net par = playing to your index) and b) realizes that their differential is going to be the same… I think they'll get over their initial questions. No. And yet… if he shoots the same scores, he'll get the same handicap index he has now. But he'll know on each course what score he needs to shoot to "play to his handicap." Sheesh, Dean. This stuff isn't that hard to figure out. Enough with the sensationalistic stuff. I don't find it "unacceptable" at all. Then again, I'm not nearly 80 and seemingly incapable of doing basic math these days. No. This literally makes no sense, as that part of the differential calculation and the course handicap calculation remains identical. Good! No. Categorically wrong. They should have been adjusting their handicaps all along. Previously it was by subtracting the course ratings. Which… is still basically what's done, with the addition of the course rating being "baked in" to the course handicap calculation. Dean is wrong here, or doing some math heretofore unknown by the world. When par is the same, what determines the difference in handicaps? The course rating, which Dean loves! Sheesh! You had to things when players were in situations like this before, too. This is getting exhausting. He keeps using words like "less precise" and "unfair" but does not seem to understand what they mean. This is like the Princess Bride meme: "you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." The caps reduce upward movement. Committees have reign to reduce a player's handicap, and there's still an automatic Exceptional Score Reduction. I'm going through these more quickly now because… well, it's silly how badly Dean misses the mark with this blog post. Dean is literally confusing the upward movement (with the soft and hard caps) here with the exceptional score reduction which is used when lowering handicaps due to an exceptionally good score. The creators of the WHS are handicap experts. They know more about the current state of handicaps/handicapping than the Pope Emeritus. It's been shown to have almost no effect across all handicaps. Yes, some 36s under the old system are now 35s under the new system. Yawn. He should have stopped there. It's easier to apply and makes more sense. This makes no sense. It's "not complex" but players will have to guess? And, for men or women, the stroke index of each hole doesn't change because they play a different set of tees. They get a different number of strokes, but it's always been true that when you get 14 strokes you apply a stroke to stroke index holes 1-14, and when you get 11, to just holes with a SI of 1-11. Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence. Dean's just out here continuing to make shit up about "the inaccuracy of par" and ignoring that with Par (an integer) came the Course Rating, which he agrees is precise and accurate. No. No, this is inaccurate. Also, as noted, you can randomly assign stroke indexes, and so long as all the low numbers or all the high numbers are not clumped together at the beginning or ends of the 18 holes, matches generally work out the same. This is inaccurate. It is an algorithm that looks at scores. That's it. Also, this is better than a system like the prior one where no such thing existed at all. Wildly inaccurate and off-base. Did they do actual testing? No need. They have millions and millions of rounds and ran many, many, many simulations. That's testing. Dean seems to continue to be unaware of the fact that computers are more powerful now than they were in 2002. But, he's nearly 80, so we can understand if not going so far as to give him a pass on how much he gets wrong. Cool. Noted. For the most part that was because many countries haven't been able to rate enough of their courses. :sigh:
    • Day 3 (3 Jun 26) - More work on keeping arms connected today - hard foam balls with 7i and 5w…..
    • Day 274 6-3 flow drill getting chest through, arms in front. Arms get a little pinned to the side, not as much in front as I want them when I add speed. 
    • Shot 48 yesterday.  For me bogey golf is good.  I was 10 over through 7 and figured with a Par 3 and 4 coming on all I needed was birdie / par to get my 45. I had a great tee shot on #8 and sunk  a 5 footer for birdie, game was coming together, now just needed par on #9. Had a great tee drive and the green was within range for a hoped GIR or nGIR.  But I pulled the shot left into tall weeds and needed to take a drop.  So much for par, but a bogey for 46 is still good for me. I hit my lob wedge to get over a small tree and saw the ball riding nicely  on line to the pin when my club hit the ball a 2nd time on my follow through causing the ball to change directions and ended up @ pin high but along the same tall weeds I just took an unplayable out of.  had no room for a backswing, Just hacked at it and it shot across the green to the rough on the far side.  Needed a chip & 1 putt got a triple bogey. you can see the hole fall apart in the screenshot below.  
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.