Is Judgemental Feedback advantageous?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mdl

This time I'll just point out that I made a bunch of very explicit, clear points about why you've garnered so much negative reaction.  You once again don't actually respond to the points I (or anyone else) has made (just maybe because I was right and the only reasonable response would be to apologize in one way or another and stop being so disrespectful in your posts), and instead dodge the issues with a response of silly asides and more defensive and passive aggressive insults.

mdl, you missed him!  Patrick will not be able to aggravate you anymore as Erik has banned him for his multiple personalities.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

mdl, you missed him!  Patrick will not be able to aggravate you anymore as Erik has banned him for his multiple personalities.

Ha.  I wondered how long that would take.  Was moving this weekend and had a bitch of a time getting internet provided at the new place, and scrolling through posts on the phone isn't super fun.

Speaking of which, any chance TST could get a mobile site or an app?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Jim Furyk's backswing feels "normal" to him, he has said he doesn't feel what the video shows, the loopyness.

He would feel it if he had non-judgemental feedback?

I'm saying no.  I like everyone else has issues with my swing and I need to exaggerate the opposite to find a happy medium.  For me feeling the clubshaft across the line at the top of the backswing, gets it close to neutral because I have a tendency to lay it off.

But doesn't the laying off start way before you get to the top. Would it not be nice to know when you start rolling your club over. Instead of just trying to fix it somehow at the top. I may be getting this wrong but I think you understand where I am coming from.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

But doesn't the laying off start way before you get to the top. Would it not be nice to know when you start rolling your club over. Instead of just trying to fix it somehow at the top. I may be getting this wrong but I think you understand where I am coming from.

No. For Furyk it begins when the downswing starts.

Not sure what this has to do with the original topic or question, though.

[Patrick57]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Not sure what this has to do with the original topic or question, though.

I wasn't referring to Jim Furyk. I'm sure mvmac was talking about his own swing below and I was making the point that 'Non Judgemental Feedback' would address any swing fault from its origin and not where it ultimately should look right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Jim Furyk's backswing feels "normal" to him, he has said he doesn't feel what the video shows, the loopyness.

He would feel it if he had non-judgemental feedback? I'm saying no.

"I like everyone else have issues with my swing and I need to exaggerate the opposite to find a happy medium.  For me feeling the clubshaft across the line at the top of the backswing, gets it close to neutral because I have a tendency to lay it off."

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

But doesn't the laying off start way before you get to the top. Would it not be nice to know when you start rolling your club over. Instead of just trying to fix it somehow at the top. I may be getting this wrong but I think you understand where I am coming from.

Yes and it would be nice to know but I didn't use to feel it.  It's better now since I have a better understanding of how the right arm needs to work for me.  And like you said, it's not just about fixing one part of the backswing but the whole sequencing.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yes and it would be nice to know but I didn't use to feel it.  It's better now since I have a better understanding of how the right arm needs to work for me.  And like you said, it's not just about fixing one part of the backswing but the whole sequencing.

So your laying off problem stemmed from your right arm. Did you fix it at its origin? Did you use some version of NJF to feel this? Did fixing the mistake at its origin then fix the sequencing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I wasn't referring to Jim Furyk. I'm sure mvmac was talking about his own swing below and I was making the point that 'Non Judgemental Feedback' would address any swing fault from its origin and not where it ultimately should look right.

I don't think "non-judgmental feedback" is at all the way to go for the majority of students who can't for the life of them "feel" things during the golf swing.

Hell, one of the tricks we have to increasing shoulder turn for a certain, specific kind of fault/flaw is "no shoulder turn, only take your shoulder down." Students will turn their shoulders more not even trying to do it.

I outlined my three steps earlier. I disagree that "judgmental feedback" is always bad. "Rude" feedback is always bad, sure. I might even say "nope, not right" feedback is (almost) always bad when offered alone. But "1) no, not right, 2) here's why, and 3) here's what you want to do" works fine for me. I don't know what you'd call it, but I continue to believe that the entire point of someone paying me is that they're paying for my knowledge and judgment, and that my knowledge and judgment and communication abilities are the three things that basically comprise my "skill" as an instructor.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think "non-judgmental feedback" is at all the way to go for the majority of students who can't for the life of them "feel" things during the golf swing.

Hell, one of the tricks we have to increasing shoulder turn for a certain, specific kind of fault/flaw is "no shoulder turn, only take your shoulder down." Students will turn their shoulders more not even trying to do it.

I outlined my three steps earlier. I disagree that "judgmental feedback" is always bad. "Rude" feedback is always bad, sure. I might even say "nope, not right" feedback is (almost) always bad when offered alone. But "1) no, not right, 2) here's why, and 3) here's what you want to do" works fine for me. I don't know what you'd call it, but I continue to believe that the entire point of someone paying me is that they're paying for my knowledge and judgment, and that my knowledge and judgment and communication abilities are the three things that basically comprise my "skill" as an instructor.

I used to teach that way. I don't think they are that interested in our knowledge, we can all talk a good game at a certain level. They are paying us first and foremost to learn from us. A good coach is like a leader and not a manager. Have you read Gallwey's 'Inner Game' or Shoemaker's 'Extraordinary Golf' books? I could make more arguments on NJF for them but I thought I'd ask first.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I don't think they are that interested in our knowledge, we can all talk a good game at a certain level. They are paying us first and foremost to learn from us. A good coach is like a leader and not a manager.

You're just talking in circles and too vaguely to really discuss things.

1. Of course they're paying for my knowledge and judgment.

2. I disagree that "we can all talk a good game" and resent the implication that I only "talk a good game." I think many instructors sound like idiots when they talk and most can't DO at all.

3. They pay to learn because we have knowledge and judgment .

4. I don't know what leaders or managers have to do with anything, nor do I, at this point, care.

Many things I do are "leader-like" and yet some are not "leader-like" at all. Great leaders themselves employ several different methods, tactics, etc.

Again, your posts are too vague to really truly discuss.

[newtogolf]

I won't speak for others, but I'm paying my instructor to help me improve my swing so I can lower my scores.  I'll read books, research on the internet and watch DVD's to learn.  What I can't do on my own is sit outside my body when I swing and provide myself instant feedback on what I'm doing wrong.  I have started using video more, but again you have to know what your swing is supposed to look like before you can critique what you're doing.  As Erik has always said and I've learned the hard way "Feel isn't real".

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I used to teach that way. I don't think they are that interested in our knowledge, we can all talk a good game at a certain level. They are paying us first and foremost to learn from us. A good coach is like a leader and not a manager. Have you read Gallwey's 'Inner Game' or Shoemaker's 'Extraordinary Golf' books? I could make more arguments on NJF for them but I thought I'd ask first.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I won't speak for others, but I'm paying my instructor to help me improve my swing so I can lower my scores.  I'll read books, research on the internet and watch DVD's to learn.  What I can't do on my own is sit outside my body when I swing and provide myself instant feedback on what I'm doing wrong.  I have started using video more, but again you have to know what your swing is supposed to look like before you can critique what you're doing.  As Erik has always said and I've learned the hard way "Feel isn't real".

I suggest that you try practising with a partner. My daughter sometimes rotates her head almost 90° during the back swing. We often work on that until her feel is real. I ask her to tell me how much her head rotates on each swing.

1 = not at all

2 = a little

3 = half way

4 = more than half way

5 = 90°

This is NJF so she responds first. She hits a ball and says 4 and either I agree and say 4 or disagree and say 3 or 5.

This continues for the next few minutes until we are both saying 1 and then we move on.

Her feel becomes real.

WE then swap over and she mirrors me on something until my feel becomes real for my exercise.

[Patrick57]

Judgemental Feedback: that's right, that's wrong, that's good, that's bad, well done, you've nearly got it, keep working on what I told you, see what happens when you do as I tell you and so on.

Sound familiar?

Non Judgemental Feedback: Tell me what you think happened with that last swing? What did you see? What did you hear? What could you do to make sure you don't turn your shoulders at the start of the downswing? Can you feel your wrists rolling on the back swing? Do you feel this in your right hand or left? Do you feel you are rolling mildly or wildly. Can you give me a number from 1-5 for how much you rolled your wrists?

Sound Unfamiliar?

NJF is the way to learn at a much quicker pace. It's how we change the feel is not real into the real feel.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by mchepp

After reading your threads it is clear you have an agenda. If you were here to help people you would respond kindly (from the beginning and not after being punished) to other golfers because you would want to help them. If you want to help then be helpful, and act like it. Or just push whatever it is you came on here to push and get it over with.

I'm here to discuss playing and learning golf. I have offered some advice but its not the reason I'm here. I didn't know until I signed up for this forum that it was completely different to what I expected. Its very techno orientated and that's not the only way.

I know both to an extent and I'll go for and give the 'inside-out'/NJF version every time.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Judgemental Feedback: that's right, that's wrong, that's good, that's bad, well done, you've nearly got it, keep working on what I told you, see what happens when you do as I tell you and so on.

Sound familiar?

Non Judgemental Feedback: Tell me what you think happened with that last swing? What did you see? What did you hear? What could you do to make sure you don't turn your shoulders at the start of the downswing? Can you feel your wrists rolling on the back swing? Do you feel this in your right hand or left? Do you feel you are rolling mildly or wildly. Can you give me a number from 1-5 for how much you rolled your wrists?

Sound Unfamiliar?

NJF is the way to learn at a much quicker pace. It's how we change the feel is not real into the real feel.

Would this be NJF then?

You: How much did you rotate your head?

Your daughter: 3

You: Wrong. 5.

Sounds kind of judgmental to me and on top of that wouldn't it be quicker just to tell her that it was a 5 to start and if she felt something different she could tell you that?

[Patrick57]

Would this be NJF then? You: How much did you rotate your head? Your daughter: 3 You: Wrong. 5. Sounds kind of judgmental to me and on top of that wouldn't it be quicker just to tell her that it was a 5 to start and if she felt something different she could tell you that?

I never say right or wrong or good or bad, so Me: How much did you rotate your head? Your daughter: 3 Me: 5 D: Really Me: I am just saying what I saw. D: Funny it felt like a 3. So what you see as a 5 feels like a 3 to me. I'll swing again D: 3 Me: 4 Another swing D: 3 Me: 3 Swing D: 2 Me: 2 Swing D: 1 Me 1 And now we move on to something else. NJF is very effective but once you start using words like 'wrong' the feedback is no longer NJ. Easy really. [quote name="tristanhilton85" url="/t/56367/is-judgemental-feedback-advantageous/36#post_696380"] Wouldn't it be quicker just to tell her that it was a 5 to start and if she felt something different she could tell you that? [/quote] The student learns much quicker if her feedback is allowed to be taken into consideration and this means she talks first. If you smother this - as is done in the widespread teaching methods - you are hindering student improvement levels.