Putter shaft question

[Vladimir Puttin']

From Appendix II Rules of Golf 2012 - 2015 page 148, can someone explain the following:

"If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical by as much as 25 degrees"

It doesn't make sense to me and is very vague.  Any help in deciphering this would be much obliged.

Vlad

[boogielicious]

Vlad, you are the Prime Minister of Russia.  You can change the rule!!

It is trying to eliminate the croquet style swing.  They are trying to define the maximum lie angle of the club (in a round about legalize way).

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Vlad, you are the Prime Minister of Russia.  You can change the rule!!

It is trying to eliminate the croquet style swing.  They are trying to define the maximum lie angle of the club (in a round about legalize way).

I thought he was recently elected as the President?

How about those putters that are used sideways, are they inclined as well?

[Vladimir Puttin']

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Vlad, you are the Prime Minister of Russia.  You can change the rule!!

It is trying to eliminate the croquet style swing.  They are trying to define the maximum lie angle of the club (in a round about legalize way).

No, the fact you can't straddle the line of putt prevents a croquet style putt.  And they already have a rule as to how vertical a putter shaft can be:

"  (i)  the projection of the straight part of the shaft on to the vertical plane through the toe and heel must diverge from the vertical by at least 10 degrees"

I want to know what this means:

"If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical by as much as 25 degrees"

[boogielicious]

I still read it as preventing you from being vertical.  Agreed it is not straddling.  Maybe it is referring to those "face on" putters.

[mtsalmela80]

Check the putters section out:

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Clubs/

If you ask me, I'd say that 2nd part is there to thwart club makers from trying to design putters for face-on putting or croquet style putting, sidesaddle, whatever. That is, "Im going to design this putter specifically for side-saddle putting, but its ok because I will have 10 degrees between the natural address position and the shaft". If someone can reasonably determine that a putter has been specifically designed for alternative putting methods, then its non-conforming. It doesn't directly state its, but I'd argue that that is why its there.

I'd say its a terrible rule, because its open for interpretation. Look at what the USGA says here:

If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

So they are leaving it open for assessment, which is basically a grey area. One guy may feel so and so design conforms, while someone else may not.

Actually this is a continuation of the same section:

The determination of a feasible “normal address position” or whether a putter can be used with the shaft in a vertical or close-to-vertical position can be highly subjective and, in terms of those putters actually submitted to the USGA, the job of making rulings is easier because it is possible to compare them with previous submissions and decisions.

[Vladimir Puttin']

Cool.  Thanks.  That is exactly what I was looking for.  Definitely subjective and hard to believe they make it so vague.

[Vladimir Puttin']

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Clubs/

Look at 'Fig 8. Putter with curved sole' from the link above.

Stricker putts like this.  How does he get away with it?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Vladimir Puttin'

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Clubs/

Look at 'Fig 8. Putter with curved sole' from the link above.

Stricker putts like this.  How does he get away with it?

It's an equipment regulation. Did you read the text beneath the image? It says "no violation."

Also, Stricker doesn't putt with the heel THAT far off the ground.

[kathybhylton]

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

Check the putters section out:

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-on-Clubs-and-Balls/Clubs/

If you ask me, I'd say that 2nd part is there to thwart club makers from trying to design putters for face-on putting or croquet style putting, sidesaddle, whatever. That is, "Im going to design this putter specifically for side-saddle putting, but its ok because I will have 10 degrees between the natural address position and the shaft". If someone can reasonably determine that a putter has been specifically designed for alternative putting methods, then its non-conforming. It doesn't directly state its, but I'd argue that that is why its there.

I'd say its a terrible rule, because its open for interpretation. Look at what the USGA says here:

If the overall design of a putter is such that the player can achieve a “vertical-pendulum” style stroke (i.e., putt effectively with the shaft in a vertical or near-vertical position), it would be ruled contrary to Appendix II, 1d, even if the shaft angle does satisfy the 10-degree Rule when the putter is in its “normal address position.” The shaft angle on such a putter could be required to be increased to as much as 25 degrees. In assessing whether a putter can be used effectively in a “vertical-pendulum” style manner, the combination of the following features should be considered:

So they are leaving it open for assessment, which is basically a grey area. One guy may feel so and so design conforms, while someone else may not.

Actually this is a continuation of the same section:

The determination of a feasible “normal address position” or whether a putter can be used with the shaft in a vertical or close-to-vertical position can be highly subjective and, in terms of those putters actually submitted to the USGA, the job of making rulings is easier because it is possible to compare them with previous submissions and decisions.

This is the answer. Well done.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Vladimir Puttin'

From Appendix II Rules of Golf 2012 - 2015 page 148, can someone explain the following:

"If the overall design of the club is such that the player can effectively use the club in a vertical or close-to-vertical position, the shaft may be required to diverge from the vertical by as much as 25 degrees"

It doesn't make sense to me and is very vague.  Any help in deciphering this would be much obliged.

Vlad

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that the rule is that vague.  The sketches are pretty clear on how such measurements are to be made, and how a given club would violate the rule.  In most cases I've seen, using a putter which meets the design rule in an extreme upright position would not be very easy, and it would be difficult to hit the ball with the sweet spot on the clubface.  A club where this would not be true would be unlikely to meet the requirements in the rules.  There is nothing in the rules that would prevent a player from using a conforming club with an upright stroke provided that he doesn't breach any other rules in doing so.  I don't think that most players would be very successful with such a method, simply because they are using the club in a manner different from the way it's designed.  The balance and feel would be off, not to mention that the stance/address position would not be comfortable.

There has always been a certain amount of subjectivity in putter design.  This is why any new putter of an unusual or nonstandard design should be submitted to the USGA for approval before using it in a sanctioned competition.  There are lots of players who design and build their own putters, not commercially, but for themselves and for friends.  If I was to take that tack in obtaining a putter, I'd be pretty careful, especially if it was an odd looking clubhead.  It's too easy to run afoul of this rule without any actual intent to do so.